Understanding Genesis 1&2

[J. Jump]

That is not what I said, and you know it.

For all we know, Jesus (being born and raised as a humna, with all of the learning and traditional experiences thereof) really did think Moses wrote the Penteteuch.

While it may not have been a direct quote to say the implication is not there well . . .

I don't think Jesus "really did think" anything. He "knows" all and therefore doesn't have to think (meaning possibility of inaccuracy) about anything.

Knowing the Truth doesn't have anything to do with knowing authorship, dating, textual criticism, or any such thing.

Sure it does. Now again if you want to argue your point then the only basis you have is that Jesus didn't explicitly say Moses wrote the Torah. So if that was not what Jesus was referring to there is or at least once was a manuscript or many manuscripts that Moses wrote that spoke of Jesus that we don't have today.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me if there was something that they had access to that spoke Truth about Jesus for it to have disappeared at some point, becuase it would be very valuable for us to know as well.

 

[tragic_pizza]

So the o nly possible Truth is to think the way you think. Got it.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I don't think Jesus "really did think" anything. He "knows" all and therefore doesn't have to think (meaning possibility of inaccuracy) about anything.

The Scriptures disagree with you on this one:

Mark 13:32
32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(NIV)

 

[4Pillars]

I don't have a dog in this hunt because I don't agree with a lot of what 4Pillars has said. However, DHK, you have totally missed his point. He never said that Christ was created.

You are pushing your word definitions onto what he has said and then accusing him of being theologically incorrect.

Christ was not created, but He was indeed brough forth from heaven to earth in the form of a man. He went from one dwelling place to another minus His Glory and taken on a human body without its sin nature.

I think it would do a number of people, including myself sometimes, to stop and try to figure out what people are saying and then proceed instead of proceeding with what they "think" someone has said.

But that's just human nature. We hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see by nature.

Thanks Jump!!!

I guess, our Moderator likes to argue based on his own made up premises of other's belief -- so he can shove it to their throat for argument -- even to the point, the position has already been clarified.

Here's where I stand for the basis of another discussion... If DHK or anybody has any objection, surely, s/he will let me know.

Jesus is YHVH himself, the Son of the invisible Almighty God -- of whom no man hath seen at anytime nor his name been reveal to any one, at this time.

YHVH is the only God physically formed for us to see -- before him there was none, neither there shall be after him.

He was Not Created, since, He was already God from the beginning ; from everlasting; or ever the earth was. The brightness of the glory of the Son (YHVH), provided the Light in the beginning of creation (ALPHA), just as He will be the Light of Heaven at the end (OMEGA) in New Jerusalem, which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it.

Without YHVH/Jesus was Not anything made which was made, because Everything Physically created -- thru the power of God's Logo -- was MADE for our inhabitation by the Physical Hands of our Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten Son, of the Invisible Spirit of God.

It was YHVH, the Son, who was sent into this world, made flesh and became known as Jesus Christ. When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that YHVH is actually the Son of God --for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fulness of the invisible Godhead, Bodily (physically). :thumbs:


God Bless

 

[Magnetic Poles]

How to understand Genesis?

Allegory & parable.

 

[4Pillars]

How to understand Genesis?

Allegory & parable.

LITERAL, of course. Can you educate us?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

LITERAL, of course. Can you educate us?

Doubtful. - - - -

 

[BobRyan]

1) Before the CREATION of Adam and Eve in the image and likeness of God, both have committed their sin and Cain had already killed Abel – contrary to your flawed “fall theory”

Now, if you want to discuss and learn about it, then let me know.

When simply making stuff up it is probably best not to exegete nor even quote scripture ... oh wait! You are already doing that -- ok ... never mind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks Jump!!!

Without YHVH/Jesus was Not anything made which was made, because Everything Physically created -- thru the power of God's Logo -- was MADE for our inhabitation by the Physical Hands of our Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten Son, of the Invisible Spirit of God.

#1. We have no indication that "the Image of God is Cro-magnon"

#2. We have no indication that we are intended to inhabit the moon or the Sun or the zillions of other worlds in the univers.

#3. Though some of your points are valid - others are totally made up.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Here we have the statement that God created all things in the beginning – both “The HeavenS” AND the Earth.

We now focus on “THE EARTH” – going to WHERE it is in the universe we see that IT IS formless and void and darkness overs over the SURFACE of the deep (waters)

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3 Then God said, ""Let there be light''; and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

The formula is ALWAYS the same in Gen 1-2:3. “AND GOD said… AND THERE WAS… AND evening and morning a <Ordinal Number> Day”

God creates light in “one evening and morning” – showing a single-sided light source and a planet in rotation --hint: “evening and morning”. In all cases the “Evening and morning” formula is used to show “one day”.

6 Then God said, ""Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.''
7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

God creates dry land in “one evening and morning” – and gives us the cardinal numbering – day two. This is now a “Chronological Sequence” that literally shows events AND the timeline that bounds them.

Exodus 20:8-11 references this 7 day Chronological “sequence” explicitly confirming the sequence

9 Then God said, "" Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear''; and it was so.
10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, ""Let the earth sprout vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them''; and it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

God creates vegetation – on day 3. One day before creating “the TWO great lights”. All vegetation is created in “one evening and morning” – and God gives us the cardinal numbering for this day – day 3. This is a “Chronological Sequence” that literally shows events AND the timeline that bounds them.

14 Then God said, ""Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens[/b] to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
15 and let them be for [b]lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth''; and it was so.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; (He made the stars also).

17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
19 There was [b]evening and there was morning, a fourth day.[/b]

God creates “Two Great Lights” – on day 4. God gives us the cardinal numbering for this day – day 4. This is a “Chronological Sequence” that literally shows events AND the timeline that bounds them. The formula is the same “God Said – Let there be… God saw that it was good… AND there was evening and morning – A nnnn- Day”


20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

God creates fowl and fish on day 5. God gives us the cardinal numbering for this day – day 5. This is a “Chronological Sequence” that literally shows events AND the timeline that bounds them. The formula is the same “God Said – Let there be… God saw that it was good… AND there was evening and morning – A nnnn- Day”

 

[BobRyan]

Then on this SAME earth that was "created out of water and BY water" (2Peter 3) God creates Man "IN HIS OWN IMAGE" -- before the Flood.

 

[J. Jump]

The Scriptures disagree with you on this one:

Mark 13:32
32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(NIV)

Well it looks like we have us a problem then. If this verse tells us that Jesus is not All-Knowing then Jesus can't be God, because God is All-Knowing.

Terry do we have an All-Knowing God or don't we?

By the way from what I have been told by someone that has a degree in Greek the way this verse has been translated leads to the false idea that Christ is not All-Knowing, when in reality it is a verse that is poorly put together and in the original language does not leave that impression.

I believe there is some resource material that he has on this issue and I will try to find it.

But in short God is All-Knowing, which means that all Three of the Trinity are All-Knowing.

 

[DHK]

Well it looks like we have us a problem then. If this verse tells us that Jesus is not All-Knowing then Jesus can't be God, because God is All-Knowing.
do we have an All-Knowing God or don't we?

Christ, in his humanity on earth, chose to limit himself in different ways. He came to do the will of his Father. That is the key verse in understanding all of this.
On the way to the cross he told Peter to put up his sword. Why? He could have called 12 legions of angels; but he didn't. He laid aside his omnipotence and went willingly to the cross, as a human, subjecting himself to the will of the Father.
He prayed in the garden: "Father let thy will be done, and not mine."

Thus while on earth it was the Father's will to keep some knowledge hidden from the Son. That was in his humanity. He came to do the will of His Father. If it wasn't in His Father's will at that time to know the exact time of His return, then Christ would not know it. He knew what the Father would reveal to Him. He submitted himself totally to the will of His Father. He was the God-man.

Now that He is in heaven he definitely knows the time of his coming. He is God and knows all things.
DHK

 

[DHK]

I don't have a dog in this hunt because I don't agree with a lot of what 4Pillars has said. However, DHK, you have totally missed his point. He never said that Christ was created.

You are pushing your word definitions onto what he has said and then accusing him of being theologically incorrect.

Christ was not created, but He was indeed brough forth from heaven to earth in the form of a man. He went from one dwelling place to another minus His Glory and taken on a human body without its sin nature.

I think it would do a number of people, including myself sometimes, to stop and try to figure out what people are saying and then proceed instead of proceeding with what they "think" someone has said.

But that's just human nature. We hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see by nature.

I agree with you. The words begotten, brought forth, etc. refer to Christ's entrance into this world as a human--His incarnation.

But as far as I understood the context of this statement:

I posted that the “True Light” (Son) was BROUGHT FORTH (begotten) into this physical world from the invisible realm of his Father. He WAS already God in the beginning (John 1:1) -- not created as you would like to argue fallaciously.

It was in the context of Genesis 1:1,2, which is long before the birth of Christ. He compares Christ, (in context of which he has previously said) to the entrance of light at the creation of the world). But that is not when Christ was brought forth. It is a matter of time. Christ was "brought forth" not at the time of creation, but at the time of his birth. The one is a heresy; the other is orthodox Christian truth. The way it was originally written it seemed like he was saying the former. I could be wrong though.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

JJ
Quote:
The Scriptures disagree with you on this one:

Mark 13:32
32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(NIV)

Well it looks like we have us a problem then. If this verse tells us that Jesus is not All-Knowing then Jesus can't be God, because God is All-Knowing.

Terry do we have an All-Knowing God or don't we?

This text clearly tells us that Jesus did not know something. It also tells us what that something is.

In Phil 2 we find that "Jesus emptied himself" to become found "in the FORM of a MAN" just as prior to that He existed in the very FORM of God according to the text.

Jesus stated that "He has life IN Himself" just as the Father "has life IN Himself". And we have a large number of things where the claim is made for Christ in the Bible that can only be true of God.

So I do not think the question is -- Is Jesus God -- rather the unknown is exactly How and when He is deliberately choosing to limit Himself as He did during the incarnation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
For all we know, Jesus (being born and raised as a humna, with all of the learning and traditional experiences thereof) really did think Moses wrote the Penteteuch.

Then ALL Bible writers "Who were human" and "lived among humans" would ALSO be subject to "full-of-error" ideas that you propose for Christ.

The bottom line along that line of speculation would be "pure error from the Bible" with humanists "picking and choosing" the parts they want to believe or accept and discarding the rest. Aftger all - in your example Christ is to be distrusted when HE claims to know who wrote the book but the pure speculation of humansits is to be accepted even OVER the Word of Christ HIMSELF!!

The Serpent comes to Eve and suggests "you might be wrong about what God asked you to do - -did he say you could not eat from ANY tree of the Garden?" -- the plan of inserting doubt and uncertainty into the Word of God goes way back to the beginning.

 

[4Pillars]

I agree with you. The words begotten, brought forth, etc. refer to Christ's entrance into this world as a human--His incarnation.

But as far as I understood the context of this statement:

It was in the context of Genesis 1:1,2, which is long before the birth of Christ. He compares Christ, (in context of which he has previously said) to the entrance of light at the creation of the world). But that is not when Christ was brought forth. It is a matter of time. Christ was "brought forth" not at the time of creation, but at the time of his birth. The one is a heresy; the other is orthodox Christian truth. The way it was originally written it seemed like he was saying the former. I could be wrong though.

I see. You're one of those who doesn't recognize Jesus in the Old Testament. His Name is YHVH (Heb-Adonai YHVH), first listed in Gen 2:4. He is called LORD God by the King James translators. He is the God of the Jews, and the ONLY God ever formed, Physically. If you have seen Him, then you have seen the Father.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Well it looks like we have us a problem then. If this verse tells us that Jesus is not All-Knowing then Jesus can't be God, because God is All-Knowing.

Terry do we have an All-Knowing God or don't we?

Phil 2:5-8
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(NAS)

By the way from what I have been told by someone that has a degree in Greek the way this verse has been translated leads to the false idea that Christ is not All-Knowing, when in reality it is a verse that is poorly put together and in the original language does not leave that impression.

If you look long enough, you can find some "bible scholar" to back up almost any position you choose.

 

[4Pillars]

Dear Mr. Moderator,

I don’t have a problem with the cited text and fully agree with it -- but, it is off the topic. However, if you insist to talk about ADAM, here's where you can argue my position.

1) Before the CREATION of Adam and Eve in the image and likeness of God, both have committed their sin and Cain had already killed Abel – contrary to your flawed “fall theory”

Now, if you want to discuss and learn about it, then let me know.

"The bible does not contradict itself".... you know. :thumbsup:

When simply making stuff up it is probably best not to exegete nor even quote scripture ... oh wait! You are already doing that -- ok ... never mind.

Dear Bob,

I don’t make things up in the Bible, so please, do not project your own weaknesses on me. Seemingly, your understanding of the Scripture is very poor. Let me see if I can explain and help you and your friends…

The Scripture is very clear in documenting us the book of generations of Adam, IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) they were created in the image and likeness of God. Genesis 5:1-3

This specific time of event took place only AFTER both A&E have already committed their "original sin"; Cain had already Killed Abel and only after MAN BEGAN CALLING THE NAME OF THE LORD. (Genesis 4:26).

The next generation in Adam's image was Seth not Cain, as recorded in the Scripture.

Look and read closely...

Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The context of the text is also consistent as outlined and summarized in Genesis chapter 1. Therefore, by the grace of God, both A&E were created in the image and likeness of God or Born Again Spiritually in Christ -- after they have sinned -- contrary to fall theory and teachings.

So please, next time, do not continue blaming Adam & Eve for your misfortune or death. IF they have not sinned, perhaps, you wouldn't have been here - living and enjoying your own little world right now.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

I don’t make things up in the Bible, so please, do not project your own weaknesses on me. Seemingly, your understanding of the Scripture is very poor. Let me see if I can explain and help you and your friends…

The Scripture is very clear in documenting us the book of generations of Adam, IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) they were created in the image and likeness of God. Genesis 5:1-3

Actually you are quite good at making things up, but not very good at convincing any of us that they are Scriptural concepts.
"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."

As you say, the Scripture is clear in documenting time, and the sequence of events. It is a book of history; to be specific: HIS STORY, God's Revelation to mankind. And this is what He says:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I could have posted all the verses inbetween, but you can read them for yourself. God created man in His own image, and after His own likeness. And after He did--the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Sin had not yet entered the world. God beheld everything that He had made, and behold it was very good. Adam had been created in the image and likeness of God in the 6th day, and sin had not yet entered into the world. This much is obvious to the most basic of readers. You need not be a theologian to see these very elementary facts. Genesis 5 has nothing to do with this passage, point in time, sequence of events, etc.

This specific time of event took place only AFTER both A&E have already committed their "original sin"; Cain had already Killed Abel and only after MAN BEGAN CALLING THE NAME OF THE LORD. (Genesis 4:26).

You are making up stories unverifiable by Scripture, by your own eisigesis. You have taken some Scripture out of context and then isolated it and built your own doctrine around it. That is what cults do. And that brings me to a request. Here is what your profile says:

Denomination - Body of Christ
Home Church -By Grace of God

You have listed neither denomination, nor your home church, (both of which are required fields) and somehow you still became a registered member. So, please identify yourself and tell us what denomination are you from? What church do you belong to? Or do you have some fear and embarassment about it?

As to God making man in his own image and likeness taking place after Abel was killed is ludicrous. Genesis 4:26 simply gives a period in history that mankind started calling on the name of the Lord. It doesn't say it never happened before that time. We don't know; it doesn't say. God is referring to one specific event here, and it has nothing to do with creation, and certainly nothing to do with man being in the image and likeness of God. Men still call upon the name of the Lord today.

The next generation in Adam's image was Seth not Cain, as recorded in the Scripture.
Look and read closely...

Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The context of the text is also consistent as outlined and summarized in Genesis chapter 1. Therefore, by the grace of God, both A&E were created in the image and likeness of God or Born Again Spiritually in Christ -- after they have sinned -- contrary to fall theory and teachings.

What is contrary to "fall theories?" as you put it. God gives a summary statement.
"In the day (the sixth day of creation) that God created man in the likeness of God created he him." God created man within the six days of creation.
Then it says that Adam lived 130 years and begat another son, that was called Seth. This was one of many sons. Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. Only a few are mentioned by name.
Adam and Eve fell. They sinned. That was in chapter three. You need to read that before you go on into chapters four and five. That is where the fall took place.
Now look at Genesis 5:3 through more objective eyes:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

God created Adam in his own likeness and his own image.
Adam begat a son; but it was born in Adam's likeness, after Adam's image. Adam's likeness and image had been corrupted and tainted from the fall in chapter three. The verse is clearly teaching that Seth is born with a sin nature, just as Adam has. He is no longer in the image of God. That image has been tarnished by sin. He is now in the image of Adam--an image tarnished with sin.

So please, next time, do not continue blaming Adam & Eve for your misfortune or death. IF they have not sinned, perhaps, you wouldn't have been here - living and enjoying your own little world right now.

As I have been saying all along, and you refuse to believe:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
DHK


God Bless[/quote]