Understanding Genesis 1&2

[DHK]

Most people don't know the difference between God's time and man's time. God has but 7 Days and Today is the 6th Day. At the end of this 6th Day, Heaven will be complete, and all believers will be there. When Heaven is brought to Perfection, God will rest for Eternity, the 7th Day, which has No end.

God did not speak to man in mysteries and/or allegories. The Jews understood that perfectly well.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
--He rested (past tense) on the seventh day. Therefore they were to keep the Sabbath holy, as was commanded:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
--The Sabbath (one 24 hour day out of seven 24 hour days), the Jews observed as holy. God invented time for man's sake. There is nothing to understand about a holy God who made man and made time for man.

Your allegorization in this respect is only a form of unbelief.

Man's time began on the 4th Day and depends on the movements of the Sun, Moon, and Stars. Since God is present, but also beyond this Universe, He is Not subject to the movements of our Stars. Man's time is temporal and will cease when this Universe is burned. God's time is Eternal.

God is eternal; he made time for the sake of man. One does not need to philosophize beyond those simple facts.

With this evidence in mind, can you tell us what Day it is? Seems like an easy test, for sure. Just list your answer here:

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is just one of your glaring mistakes.
Every time Yom is used with a numeral it refers to a 24 hour day. That is a fact. That is not just before the fourth day. That goes for the fifth, and the sixth days as well. You don't need to make up stories, but take God's Word as it is.

That is certainly a Bible fact and can be tested by anyone who doubts it.

If someone has a scripture showing "and evening and morning was the 4th day" does not really mean "4th day" then show it.

Furthermore in Exodus 20:8-11 when God says "SIX days you shall labor and do all your work but the 7th day is... FOR in SIX days the Lord MADE... and rested the 7th day" -- is there ANY indication at all that Israel did not need to follow that TO THE DAY -- but could pick any time duration defintion they wished for "yom"?

I know of no respected Bible commentary that suggests Israel observed anything OTHER than a REAL 7 day week!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4Pillars
This means that each of God's "Days" are some 5 Billion years in length.

This means that the morning of the Creation was some 25-30 Billion years ago.

The best way that I can describe your conclusion "...which means..." in relation to your premise, is that it is non sequitor. It has nothing to do with the six days of creation. Re-examine Exodus 20:11

Exactly!

Exodus 20 would become "For in 25 billion years the Lord made the heavens and the earth - so you too should work for 25 billion years and then rest for 5 billion years just as He did" because of course they all knew that "yom" means "5 billion years".

NO Bible scholar has ever argues that in Exodus 20 God intended Israel to think that He took 25 billion years to do what Gen 1-2:3 says is done in 7 days OR that Israel is now trying to work for 25 billion years so they can have a 5 billion year "yom" of rest.

DHK
Re-examine Genesis chapter one.
You still haven't answered all the points that I have given you. I presume it is because you can't.

Indeed -- giving each day a length of 5 billion years -- leaves us with Plant life on earth for 5 billion years BEFORE the Sun or the moon or insects!

It means that we would get 20 BILLION years between the creation of all plant life AND the first land animal of Day 6!

EVEN believers in evolutionism do not posit a 20 billion year timeline for earth in total!

In fact the ENTIRE universe is currently estimated to be less than 14 Billion years old according to Evolutionists.

---

Exegesis demands that we look at the meaning of Gen 1-2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 WITHOUT inserting the filter of "evolutionism" into the text.

EISEGESIS fully allows such an "insert" - but it is totally rejected as a method of sound Bible interpretation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[4Pillars]

AFTER reading and discussing most of my post, God says that both of you can now see the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the World. I believe that both of you are just crowing and displaying the rebellious side of your disposition.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: -Rom 1:18-20

You had better repent or He will give you over to a Reprobate mind.

raying:

 

[4Pillars]

The evidence is in everything around us. God's Creation shouts of His Majesty and Sovereignty. EVERY true discovery agrees totally with His Holy Word, or the interpretation of a man, is in error.

It matters Not what I interpret. What matters is that which is written in Scripture, and in the Rocks, must agree, or the interpretation is wrong. When you find the One Truth, you will see that the One Truth agrees with every other discovered Truth. There is Not one Truth for Christians, and one for Scientists. When you find God's Truth, it agrees exactly with both. Scoffers of the last days, will Not believe this.

This means.......the age of this earth (4.5B years old) is in complete accord with Scripture.

 

[4Pillars]

WRONG AGAIN!!! “YOM” is a period of Time which existed before the Sun, Moon, and Stars of the 4th Day. Therefore, it was not a 24 hrs/ day as you continue to assume.

Jesus provided the “DAY LIGHT” for the first 3 Days of Creation (Alpha) , just the same as He will provide the Light for Heaven (Omega), which has no Sun, nor Moon to shine in it.

Read and learn….

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Next Please...

Here is just one of your glaring mistakes.
Every time Yom is used with a numeral it refers to a 24 hour day. That is a fact. That is not just before the fourth day. That goes for the fifth, and the sixth days as well. You don't need to make up stories, but take God's Word as it is.

This is a classic example of strawman's argument. The issue here is whether there was already sun, moon and stars during the first three days of creation in order to support their wild imagination of 24hrs/day- earth' time. The fact is, even the earth was not yet formed/completed until the 3rd day, therefore, how can they based their assumption of 24 hrs/ day during these time -- the first three days of creation -- is beyond me. :laugh:

 

[Bro. James]

Speculating on Gen. 1

What are we doing? Revelation 21: 1, new heaven, new earth...

Were we there at Gen. 1:1? Nope. God was. He said He did it suddenly. Now what? Theistic evolution does not wash.

Peter said it is all going to melt with fervent heat anyway: II Peter 3: 9-11, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up..." Study the whole chapter.

How much time will we spend on that which is moot?

Check your chronographs for calibration.

How long is the twinkling of any eye--in nanoseconds?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[BobRyan]

AFTER reading and discussing most of my post, God says that both of you can now see the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the World. I believe that both of you are just crowing and displaying the rebellious side of your disposition.

Facts please.

We have argued the only exegetically viable position for Gen 1 and 2 showing that the clear meaning of the author to his intended audience was unmistakably 7 literal days JUST as they observed in their 7-day week taken FROM that every event!

Now you are arguing that to accept the most accurate exegetically sound position on scripture is to rebell against God???

Facts please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What are we doing? Revelation 21: 1, new heaven, new earth...

Were we there at Gen. 1:1? Nope. God was. He said He did it suddenly. Now what? Theistic evolution does not wash.

Bro. James

Indeed it does not.

1. Exegetically it fails miserably because all agree that the author of the text never intended his readers to read into it "evolutionism".

2. From a Gospel POV it fails because you don't a "real" fall of mankind nor a REAL "benevolent" creation from which "to fall".

3. From a science POV it fails for sooo many reasons almost impossible to count.
a. Oxygen in our atmosphere according to the findings of the moon-based observations of earth (losing hydrogen and generating free oxygen in the upper atmosphere) from Appollo 16's mission.

b. No viable abiogenesis experiments of any kind -- no way to even force/contrive abiogenesis let alone get it to just "happen".

c. No scientific evidence that plant life on earth ever existed for billions of years before the sun.

d. No evidence that macro evolution even exists at all. Mutation within a "kind" yes -- but true macro evolution creating higher life forms out of lower ones? Not at all!

--- Might be fun to start a thread on point 3 some day

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK
"God did not speak to man in mysteries and/or allegories. The Jews understood that perfectly well.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
--He rested (past tense) on the seventh day."

GE
God did not speak "in mysteries and/or allegories"??? Not in types, in promise and prophecy?? So all 'divines' of the Christian past were self-deceived?
Waht about Jesus speaking to the disciples on their way to Emmaus? What about John in Rv saying of Christ "the Beginning of the creation of God"? What about the author of the Letter to the Hebrew Christians, in chapter one of that Letter? What of him in cahpter 4:4-5 declaring "God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake, And God the Seventh Day rested" - not as an allegory of Christ? What about Paul who more than a few times speak of "the mystery of Godliness" now revealed through and Jesus Christ??
Was it a moment of too fast speaking?

 

[4Pillars]

Brethren:

Scripture document us that Jesus provided the Light of the first three Days of creation - before the sun, moon and the stars which were made on the 4th day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, just before His Crucification, Jesus prays to the Father:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

Jesus is the Physical Image of the Invisible Spirit of God. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15. He came forth into the Physical World, from the invisible realm of his Father, when God, said "LET THERE BE LIGHT" (Gen 1:3). Jesus is the Light of the of the first 3 Days, since the Sun was not made until the 4th Day.

Jesus is also the Light of Heaven:

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23

Jesus is the beginning and the end. Jesus is LORD.

God Bless

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thesis
"Scripture document us that Jesus provided the Light of the first three Days of creation - before the sun, moon and the stars which were made on the 4th day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end."

GE
The beginning of creation though, was not Jesus Christ. God spoke - creating - light; Jesus was not created; He was not spoken - He was, the Word - the Word, of GOD.

Science say everything 'matter' began as light. Science has something here. WHEN, God created "the heavens and the earth" He said, "Let there be light" .. and it was as God did speak. The 'light' of the first three days, was created light, not the Second Person of the Godhead.

Mark how ordering was of the essence of all creation in the beginning; the fourth day's creation was also an ordering of existing things 'ordered' as in creation ordered.

 

[DHK]

DHK
"God did not speak to man in mysteries and/or allegories. The Jews understood that perfectly well.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
--He rested (past tense) on the seventh day."

GE
God did not speak "in mysteries and/or allegories"??? Not in types, in promise and prophecy?? So all 'divines' of the Christian past were self-deceived?

Do you deliberately take what I was saying out of context. God was not speaking in mysteries or in allegories in Exodus 20:11, and neither in Genesis chapter one. Keep to the context please. Twisting what I say is not even ethical.

Waht about Jesus speaking to the disciples on their way to Emmaus?

Your example here, to say the least, is absurd. What did Jesus do?

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
--He spoke to them plainly. There were no mysteries or allegories there. He simply expounded the Scriptures in an easy to understand way.

What about John in Rv saying of Christ "the Beginning of the creation of God"? What about the author of the Letter to the Hebrew Christians, in chapter one of that Letter? What of him in cahpter 4:4-5 declaring "God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake, And God the Seventh Day rested" - not as an allegory of Christ? What about Paul who more than a few times speak of "the mystery of Godliness" now revealed through and Jesus Christ??
Was it a moment of too fast speaking?

I am sorry if you can't understand the Bible. These things are not mysteries.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK
"I am sorry if you can't understand the Bible. These things are not mysteries."

GE
I hasten to admit I do not understand anything in the Bible, and especially not 'in the beginning', while God before there was anything, worked the works --- not of creation's or man's --- but "of His own works". It's all so 'plain' to you, still I don't wish it for myself.

"That you can believe that it is I, 'I-AM' ... I, I-AM, tell you these things before, so that when it happens, you may know that it is I, I-Am!" You see, I can understand one thing for absolute sure from and in Genesis 1-2, Christ the Word of God, creating, with the view to Himself: "These words I spake unto you ... which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms: CONCERNING ME". Therefore, if, "In the beginning God spake" (even "concerning the Seventh Day THUS ..."), He spake in mysteries and allegories - in figures and types - of Jesus Christ, or He just spake words we CANNOT UNDERSTAND OR EVEN CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND.

 

[DHK]

DHK
"I am sorry if you can't understand the Bible. These things are not mysteries."

GE
I hasten to admit I do not understand anything in the Bible, and especially not 'in the beginning', while God before there was anything, worked the works --- not of creation's or man's --- but "of His own works". It's all so'plain' to you, still I don't wish it for myself.

"That you can believe that it is I, 'I-AM' ... I, I-AM, tell you these things before, so that when it happens, you may know that it is I, I-Am!" You see, I can understand one thing for absolute sure from and in Genesis 1-2, Christ the Word of God, creating, with the view to Himself: "These words I spake unto you ... which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms: CONCERNING ME". Therefore, if, "In the beginning God spake" (even "concerning the Seventh Day THUS ..."), He spake in mysteries and allagories - in figures and types - of Jesus Christ, or He just spake words we CANNOT UNDERSTAND OR EVEN CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND.

In the creation account there is nothing mysterious or allegoric to understand. It is straightforward simple historical account of how God created the world in six days, and then rested on the seventh day. Each day was a 24 hour day, as was the seventh day. Since God rested on the seventh day, he commanded the nation of Israel to rest on the seventh day, and in Exodus 31 he makes the Sabbath a sign of the covenant between Him and Israel and their generations forever and ever. It has always been a 24 hour day and still is. There is nothing mysterious about Genesis chapter one, and God's historical revelation of the account of creation.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

Wrong. Go back and read the previous 5 verses. The earth (the world) was created on the first day.

Where in the world do you come up with these unbiblical statements you post?

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein , seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

The world is the earth itself... which was created on day one.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In the creation account there is nothing mysterious or allegoric to understand. It is straightforward simple historical account of how God created the world in six days, and then rested on the seventh day. Each day was a 24 hour day, as was the seventh day. Since God rested on the seventh day, he commanded the nation of Israel to rest on the seventh day, and in Exodus 31 he makes the Sabbath a sign of the covenant between Him and Israel and their generations forever and ever. It has always been a 24 hour day and still is. There is nothing mysterious about Genesis chapter one, and God's historical revelation of the account of creation.

GE
While not for a moment denying what you here state for factual, true and real, dear DHK, I find nothing of worth for my soul or its salvation, if not precisely these things do not proclaim and witness of Jesus Christ, and ultimately in the dispensations of God, in Him found its coming true, its ful-fil-ment, its Yea and Amen, its BEGINNING AND END. If not for Jesus Christ these 'facts' and 'truths' and 'realities' of Genesis would be no better or more than myth.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

4Pillars

What denomination are you? Do not list nondenominational, for that will not fly with me.

Also...which church do you attend or DID you attend?

It would behoove you not to ignore or beat around the bush on your answer...

Trolling and flaming are bannable offenses here...so is refusing to answer the direct questions of a moderator or administrator.

 

[DHK]

4Pillars (now banned) started this thread in 2006. It never was much of an edifying thread. Now that he is gone, I believe this thread should also be shut down.