Understanding Jesus as God...

Cool...something DHK and I can agree on.

 

me THREE ... I agree that denying The Creator, Jesus Christ, is heresy ...

 

Is there such a thing as "me four"?

Heresy, pure and simple.

 

I was doing a little searching in my KJV and my Strong's Concordance. In Hebrews chapter one, I found the following:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

These verses clearly state that God made the worlds by His Son (verse 2). How can you deny what is clearly written down for us?

Julia




 

"Me five", chiming on the heresy of denying the Deity of Christ.

 

Those who put forth this heresy know all of the verses that teach the truth - they choose to ignore or reinterpret them.

"Heresy" is a rarely used word on this board, even prohibited in somes forums, but to deny the deity of Christ is well and truly heretical.

 

Absolute heretical rubbish.

I told you in the post above that holders of this heresy mangle the scriptures to suit their purpose.

The errors in jcf's post are so clear any child could them.

God made, past tense, the world though His Son. God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son. In verse 8 God addresses the Son as God, etc, etc.

 

Quoting JCF, "The Father put all things under the authority of Jesus so that Jesus, being under His Father's authority, could restore His Father creation unto Him. Notice that Jesus is still under the Father's authority even after being resurrected and being seated at His Father's right hand. This nullifies the co-equal doctrine of the co-eternal doctrine."

You're lying man! Ephesians 1:20, "... Christ when He raised Him from the dead and set Him at His OWN right hand (= comletely His Equal) in heavenly places, far above aal principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come (= no 'stage' excluded) and hath put all things under His feet (He is body and shoulders above all else = He is equal with God the Heavenly Father) and gave HIM TO BE THE HEAD over all things to the Church (whence He is worshipped by the Church as GOD, and AS God the Father) which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all (= THE only omnipotent omnipresent almighty God).

 

Show me one verse in the entire bible where Jesus is referred to as "God the Son"? There is a diffrence b/t the phrases "Son of God" and "God the Son"

Over 50 times you will see he is referred to as "The Son of Gode" never once does it mention anything abou t him being called "God the Son".

Lord Bless [/QB][/QUOTE]

Oneness: There is one very clear Scripture which clearly shows "God the Father, and God the Son".

Look at 2 John 9

"Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."

Note here. The person who does not abide in the teachings of Christ, are said not to have "God". However, those who do remain in the teachings of Christ, are said to have "both THE FATHER AND THE SON". Here we have "GOD...THE FATHER AND THE SON"! The Greek is very important here. Firstly, we have "kai", translated "both" in English, which cannot mean just "One Person". Second, we have "the" (Greek "ton", definite article) Father and "the" Son, which again shows that the Two are not the same Person! The Greek grammar destroys the Oneness doctrine that Jesus and the Father are one and the same Person, as does this verse, which is not used by many for this, but clearly teaches that God is more than One Person!

How do you get around this one?

 

Since I came to this board, I have yet to understand how trinitarians can say that God is "Three persons" and yet one God. It baffles me!

Some have talked about God, like He is one, then turn around and call Him three persons. How do you get three to make up one God?

MEE

 

Since I came to this board, I have yet to understand how trinitarians can say that God is "Three persons" and yet one God. It baffles me!

Some have talked about God, like He is one, then turn around and call Him three persons. How do you get three to make up one God?

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]MEE, I think this is where we have the biggest source of confusion and disagreement about the nature of God.

I think it is entirely plausible for God to be both three distinct Persons and yet One. It is a fact, for example, that Jesus was God Incarnate. He indicated that His Father was/is God, and promised the Holy Spirit after Himself, which was Deity and not to be blasphemed. So it is fairly obvious, at least to a Trinitarian reader, that God is Three... yet He must be One, because He said so to the Israelites.

I think it is possible to overexplain anything spiritual, in that it always seems to fall into chaos when things eternal are put into a temporal mindframe.

Take, for example, the Catholic docrine of transubstantiation. Building off of Christ's own words about the elements of the Last Supper ("this is My body... this cup is My blood...") the Church attempted to explain how ground and cooked wheat and fermented grapes could become the flesh and Blood of the Risen Savior. The Chruch ended up with a rather stiff doctrine which, while based in Biblical truth, steps a bit too far, some might say, in defining the nature of that truth. I might say the same about the Oneness doctrine of the nature of the Trintiy.

This is not to say that we should not question, explore, pray, think, meditate, postulate, and question some more. Rather, we should understand that there are certain things about the nature of the Most High that we will never completely comprehend, else He would be no greater than are we.

Yet I wonder if it is possible to overlook discussions about the precise nature of God, and to agree that Jesus, God's only Son, was sent by the Father to die for our sins, and was raised on the third day as God's seal of approval for His work, and that the Holy Spirit's work is to instruct, comfort, and act as a deposit in our hearts for the day of Christ's return?

In my limited understanding, if we can agree on these things (in whichever way we decide to interpret the parts of the whole) we can begin to repair the wounds of centuries of misunderstanding and hatred.

 

Since I came to this board, I have yet to understand how trinitarians can say that God is "Three persons" and yet one God. It baffles me!

Some have talked about God, like He is one, then turn around and call Him three persons. How do you get three to make up one God?

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Hello MEE

Fair questions, which can only be answered from the context of the Holy Bible, and not by looking at any additional, extra-biblical sources or other "faiths"

The Church "doctrine" of the Holy Trinity was not the idea of some Christians who wished to introduce some new concept of God into the Bible, as has been suggested down the centuries. The Bible is very plain in stating that "God is One", where we read in places like Deuternomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One". The Hebrew word for "God" is "Elohim", which is in the masculine plural, and would refer to more than one Person (not more than One God), like we read in Genesis, "let US make man in OUR image" (1:26), where the language does not mean that God was speaking to His angels, nor was He using the so-called "royal" "us and we", as some suggest. Rather it is because the reference would include more than One Person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one doubts that "God" is known in Scripture as "The Father". This is very plain. We then have Scripture saying that another "Person", Who is distinct from the Person Who is known to us as The Father, known to us as "The Son", Who is equally Almighty God as much as the Father is. Thus we read in Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is Himself called "El gibbor", that is, "Mighty God". NOT as some have tried to reduce it to read "Mighty Hero",etc, as the same phrase in the Hebrew is used in Isaiah 10:21 for the Father, and all translate it "Mighty God". We also have in the Old Testament, where we read of "the Angel of the Lord" (Hebrew: "Messenger of Yahweh"), Who is "distinct" from "Yahweh", and yet at the same time, "equal to Yahweh". If you were to read the passages in the Old Testament on the Angel of the Lord (like, Genesis, chapter 16, 22, Exodus chapter 3, etc), you will clearly see that He takes the Titles of "God", "LORD", "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", and uses them for Himself. In Genesis 18:22, we read that "The Lord stood before Abraham" (as it is in the original Hebrew), NOT, "Abraham stood before the Lord". This will have to make "Yahweh" on earth with Abraham. Yet in the following chapter, and verse 24, we read of Two Persons who are "Yehweh", "then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the Lord our of the heavens". Clearly Two Persons Who are equally Lord.

In the New Testament we have the beginning of John's gospel, where he opens with the words, "In the beginning [before all time] was the Word, and the Word was with God[the Father], and the Word was God".The Greek grammar is very important here. "the Word", Who we are told in verse 14, "became flesh", is none other than Jesus Christ. He is said to be "with God", where in the Greek it means: "by His side", which means that He cannot be the same Person as the One He is said to be with. The we read that this same "Word", Who is "with God[the Father]" is Himself also "God". Much has been made of the use of the word "God" here when used for Jesus. There is no doubt that grammatically, and Biblically, it can only read "God" and not "a god", or "divine". Jesus Himself says: "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), where the literal Greek reading would be: "I and the Father, One we are". The Greek for "One" is "hen", which is neuter singular, literally, "One thing", or "One in Nature". We then the masculine plural, "esmen", "We are", which cannot be used is only One Person were meant. If Jesus is the same "Person" as the Father, then the masculine "heis" would have been used for "One". The Greek grammer here, and in chapter 1:1, and elsewhere is very precise, and important for our understanding of Scriptures. We then have another "Person" Who is also in Scripture addressed as "God", and known as the Holy Spirit. Thus we read in Acts Chapter 5, where Peter accuses Ananias of "lie to the Holy Spirit...you have not lied to men, but to God" (verses 3-4). Jesus also refers to the Holy Spirit as "Another Comforter" in John chapters 14-16, where the Greel for "Another", is "allos", that is "Another like Himself", which could only be used if the Holy Spirit Himself was also Almighty God as Jesus is. Had Jesus used "heteros" (another), then this would have meant that the Holy Spirit was "another different to Himself". Again, the language is very important.

Thus, we can see from the Word of God, that though "God" is "One", yet there are Three Persons, Who are clearlly shown in Scripture as being equally "Almighty God". The Holy Trinity in the only possible was to show that great Truth. Its like 1x1x1=1 and not 3!