This scripture has come up in the "Are you saving Yourself" thread and since that thread is nearing the end of it's life span I am beginning this new thread to respond to Matt's last post where he asked... "And what does one have to do to 'stay' 'in Christ'?" (refering to John 15)
The short answer is "bear fruit".
However, it would be misleading as a bible teacher to apply this in a way that leaves the student with the misconception that doing good works or bearing fruit is what saves them or keeps them saved.
Bearing fruit gives evidence that the person is allowing the word of God to work and be effective in their life. Jesus said, "...for without me ye can do nothing." One cannot bear fruit without allowing Jesus Christ to work in them and through them.
Yes, we can apply all scripture to our own Christian lives. However, many passages have very intentional targets. Such is the case with John 15.
Jhn 15:1¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Off the top of your head, real quick, what is Jesus speaking of? Have you taken the time to research this? This is the only passage of scripture where you will find Jesus Christ being refered to as the "true vine".
Who did Jesus come preaching to? Answer is Israel. And in this passage Jesus is speaking of Israel. Israel is called a vine in the OT. You can read this in Psalm 80:8.
Jesus declares that it is He who is the "true vine". It is He who raised Israel up and all that are Israelites are "in Christ". This passage has nothing to do with the "in Christ" that comes with the new birth (Holy Spirit indwellment). The new birth is a post ressurrection experience which the disciples have not yet experienced as of the hearing of this teaching.
Jhn 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Here the error is taught that this passage proves that one can be born-again saved in Christ and then be removed from Christ for not bearing fruit. The error comes from applying what is said to those who become born of God post ressurrection rather than rightfully applying it to the nation of Israel.
This is illustrated more vividly in Matt 3. John the baptizer warned the Pharisees about their bearing of fruit....
Mat 3:8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Again, keep in mind that Jesus Christ came for His own (the Jews, all of Israel) first.
The Jews Had fallen into a nationalistic form of salvation. They believed that just because they were of the line of Abraham they were automatically saved and was in need of nothing more. John put them straight on this point...
Mat 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
This brings us to the cutting off of the branches that bear no fruit...
Mat 3:10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Every Israelite is considered a tree, or a branch, from the vine (Israel, Psalm 80) but Jesus then clarified in John 15 that it is He who is the true vine and that every branch, or Israelite, in Him that does not bear fruit is taken away by the Father.
Now the bearing of fruit is directly connected to belief. No belief equals no fruit. If the word is not allowed to cleanse the soul and settle in then no fruit is the sign.
Jhn 15:3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
The disciples were deemed "clean" because Jesus spoke the word to them and they "believed". Jesus spoke the same word to Judas but he did not believe in his heart and Jesus knew this....
Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Jhn 13:11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Back to John 15....
Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Can this be applied to Christians post ressurrection? Of course. Those who are in Christ through rebirth, the same bringeth forth much fruit. However, this passage is dealing with the nation of Israel first and foremost. Israelites are the branches and Jesus is the vine. All those branches that bear no fruit will be cut off from Christ.
What is really behind the fruitlessness? Romans 11 teaches us this...
Rom 11:20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
And in the same breath Paul states...
Rom 11:21For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Just as the nation of Israel was not all individually saved through Abraham, for many had unbelief, neither will those claiming to have Christ be saved if they be found to have unbelief.
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Rom 11:22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Those who continue stedfast unto the end will be manifested as truly having faith in Christ.
Rom 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Unbelief is the focus for the cutting off. If this verse was saying that these branches were once saved and then cut off and then graffted in again or saved again it would go against clear teachings that say this is impossible. (Heb 6). You would have to conclude that one could be cut off and still saved at the same time.
Both John 15 and Romans 11 are speaking of the nation of Israel, each branch being an Israelite who is in the true vine Jesus Christ, not by faith, but by election, God's chosen. Each branch must allow God's word to wash them and bring them to faith in Christ or each branch will be cut off. "The axe is laid unto the root". Choose this day whom ye will serve.
The branches that continue not in unbelief will be grafted back into the vine, Jesus Christ, and will stand by faith. Not by works.
Ok, i shortened this up, it could have been a three page study. there is much more that could be referenced. But I believe we have the heart of the problem exposed.
God Bless! :thumbs:
The short answer is "bear fruit".
However, it would be misleading as a bible teacher to apply this in a way that leaves the student with the misconception that doing good works or bearing fruit is what saves them or keeps them saved.
Bearing fruit gives evidence that the person is allowing the word of God to work and be effective in their life. Jesus said, "...for without me ye can do nothing." One cannot bear fruit without allowing Jesus Christ to work in them and through them.
Yes, we can apply all scripture to our own Christian lives. However, many passages have very intentional targets. Such is the case with John 15.
Jhn 15:1¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Off the top of your head, real quick, what is Jesus speaking of? Have you taken the time to research this? This is the only passage of scripture where you will find Jesus Christ being refered to as the "true vine".
Who did Jesus come preaching to? Answer is Israel. And in this passage Jesus is speaking of Israel. Israel is called a vine in the OT. You can read this in Psalm 80:8.
Jesus declares that it is He who is the "true vine". It is He who raised Israel up and all that are Israelites are "in Christ". This passage has nothing to do with the "in Christ" that comes with the new birth (Holy Spirit indwellment). The new birth is a post ressurrection experience which the disciples have not yet experienced as of the hearing of this teaching.
Jhn 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Here the error is taught that this passage proves that one can be born-again saved in Christ and then be removed from Christ for not bearing fruit. The error comes from applying what is said to those who become born of God post ressurrection rather than rightfully applying it to the nation of Israel.
This is illustrated more vividly in Matt 3. John the baptizer warned the Pharisees about their bearing of fruit....
Mat 3:8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Again, keep in mind that Jesus Christ came for His own (the Jews, all of Israel) first.
The Jews Had fallen into a nationalistic form of salvation. They believed that just because they were of the line of Abraham they were automatically saved and was in need of nothing more. John put them straight on this point...
Mat 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
This brings us to the cutting off of the branches that bear no fruit...
Mat 3:10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Every Israelite is considered a tree, or a branch, from the vine (Israel, Psalm 80) but Jesus then clarified in John 15 that it is He who is the true vine and that every branch, or Israelite, in Him that does not bear fruit is taken away by the Father.
Now the bearing of fruit is directly connected to belief. No belief equals no fruit. If the word is not allowed to cleanse the soul and settle in then no fruit is the sign.
Jhn 15:3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
The disciples were deemed "clean" because Jesus spoke the word to them and they "believed". Jesus spoke the same word to Judas but he did not believe in his heart and Jesus knew this....
Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Jhn 13:11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Back to John 15....
Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Can this be applied to Christians post ressurrection? Of course. Those who are in Christ through rebirth, the same bringeth forth much fruit. However, this passage is dealing with the nation of Israel first and foremost. Israelites are the branches and Jesus is the vine. All those branches that bear no fruit will be cut off from Christ.
What is really behind the fruitlessness? Romans 11 teaches us this...
Rom 11:20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
And in the same breath Paul states...
Rom 11:21For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Just as the nation of Israel was not all individually saved through Abraham, for many had unbelief, neither will those claiming to have Christ be saved if they be found to have unbelief.
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Rom 11:22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Those who continue stedfast unto the end will be manifested as truly having faith in Christ.
Rom 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Unbelief is the focus for the cutting off. If this verse was saying that these branches were once saved and then cut off and then graffted in again or saved again it would go against clear teachings that say this is impossible. (Heb 6). You would have to conclude that one could be cut off and still saved at the same time.
Both John 15 and Romans 11 are speaking of the nation of Israel, each branch being an Israelite who is in the true vine Jesus Christ, not by faith, but by election, God's chosen. Each branch must allow God's word to wash them and bring them to faith in Christ or each branch will be cut off. "The axe is laid unto the root". Choose this day whom ye will serve.
The branches that continue not in unbelief will be grafted back into the vine, Jesus Christ, and will stand by faith. Not by works.
Ok, i shortened this up, it could have been a three page study. there is much more that could be referenced. But I believe we have the heart of the problem exposed.
God Bless! :thumbs:
