Understanding the "tithe"

[Alcott]

"can't outgive god"

That is one of the most idle phrases in this topic I can imagine. Who says that anyone can "outgive God?" And how would that be done?

I suppose it is considered to have some appeal, and when shouted from a pulpit will generate a big bunch of "Amen!"s Big deal, then, to get a reaction out of something both a Christian and an atheist would believe.

 

[Michael Hobbs]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
- it's as much applicable today as it was the day it was penned.

How so? In verse 3 God specifically addresses the Levites, in verse 4 Judah and Jerusalem, in verse 6 the sons of Jacob, in verse 9 the whole Nation of Israel, in verse 10 the storehouse which was destroyed along with the Temple in AD70 so it couldn't possibly be applicable today unless you reinterpret or allegorize Malachi 3.</font>[/QUOTE]If they could rob God (and the verse says they did) then we also can rob God in the same manner.

So are you a Seventh Day Baptist?

Well, I work Monday-Friday and spend most of Sunday at Church so technically Saturday would be my "day of rest."

 

[Michael Hobbs]

Alcott wrote

Cite the scriptures which say what your 2 points were (if you can).

Uhh? Are you asking for scripture to show that we no longer have to make burnt offerings and that God never intended for a man to have multiple wives?

 

[HankD]

If they could rob God (and the verse says they did) then we also can rob God in the same manner.

Uh, well my point Michael is that we cannot and I thought I made that point.

We (NT saints) can't rob God in the same manner as one who is under the law of Moses which BTW is impossible today to keep in that there is no identifiable levitical priesthood and neither temple nor storehouse in Jerusalem today.

Malachi was written to Jews. Malachi 3 was written specifically to focus upon the Levites who were robbing the Temple storehouse and with some of the citizenry of the nation of Israel holding back their tithe(s).

They were under the Law. We are not.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Research the laws of tithing for Israel. Hebrew Landowners were those who were tithed and not wage-earners. In fact the indictment brought against these priests and Hebrew citizens involved the wage-earner as victim "those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts".

These oppressed hirelings, widows and orphans for whom the robbed tithe was meant in part were suffering because of those who "robbed God".
The Hebrew citizens for not bringing it all, the priests for robbing the temple of those tithes which were brought in.

Techically speaking the tithe was the Israeli income tax. you fulfill a similar role when you pay your federal income tax.

But if you want to apply the letter of the law then technically speaking according to the Law, you have indeed robbed God as He requires that you bring the tithe into the storehouse (Malach 3). One cannot mix law and grace as life living principles, if you are led of the Spirit you are not under the Law, if the Spirit leads you to tithe your wage then do it.

Let me repeat my previously stated premise: IMO, there is nothing wrong with preaching a tithe, a double tithe, triple or whatever, but to relate it to Malachi 3 and/or the Law of Moses is to legalize it and put a yoke on the necks of NT believers.

Giving IMO must be preached "by faith" motivated by love without intimidation or constraint.

"The just shall live by faith".

NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

2 Corinthians 9
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

HankD

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Soulman:
You insist on keeping the tithe alive.

I will engage in the tithe and the offering until the day I die.

Is it wrong to tithe? Yes! Because it is NOT N.T. to do so.

There's no scriptural support for the idea that if it isn't mentioned in the NT, it's wrong. At best, you can only conclude that the tithe is no longer mandatory. But to imply it's forbidden is a false implication.

The Sabbath is not mentioned in the NT either. ut I still observe one day in seven to rest. How hellbound does this make me?

We are to give.

I do that as well.

We MUST stop weaving in false teaching and calling it biblical or the lines will be even more blurred than they already are. There is NO tithe in the N.T.!

There is no Airbus in the NT either, but I still fly in them from time to time.

I agree that teaching tithing as law is wrong, but to assert that it is incorrect to voluntarily engaging in the tithe, that's a false teaching if I ever heard it. Show me where in scripture the tithe is forbidden, and I'll adopt it. Until then, it is you who is engaging in a false teaching, not me.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I like Generous Giving's discussion of the tithe.

Generous Giving : FAQ

3. Does the tithe apply to us today, or was it just for Old Testament Israel?

The tithe does apply, but not in the way we might think. Some Christians see the tithe as having nothing to do with us because it is an Old Testament institution. Other Christians insist that we are bound to the tithe as God’s standard for giving. There is an element of truth in both views, but neither of them really gets the biblical point. The overarching standard of giving in the Old Testament is the tithe. In the New Testament, however, the tithe is never commanded and rarely even mentioned. Instead, John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4). So the scarce mention of the tithe in the New Testament is evidence not that God expects less of us today but that far more is possible. The tithe is still a helpful divine guideline insofar as it reminds us to give our firstfruits (i.e., the first and best of our income) to the Lord. But by New Testament standards, the tithe is only the beginning. Because the fulfillment of all God’s promises has come in Jesus, far more is possible. Does the tithe apply to us today? Yes, as the starting point of Christian giving.

 

[HankD]

John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11),

Luke 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

How so? It only says 50% of coats and perhaps food but not across the board and in the context of having extra.

and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4).

Luke 21
1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

penury = poverty.

How is this an exhortation to give all? It is an observation made by Jesus.
Better the passage of the rich young ruler.

Does the tithe apply to us today? Yes, as the starting point of Christian giving.

A nice sounding but pious sentiment which cannot be proven by NT Scripture.

Actually, in the Gospels there is another more difficult starting place.

Matthew 5
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.


HankD

 

[Michael Hobbs]

HankD

You keep saying tithing is a "Law of Moses" thing but tithing occurred BEFORE the Law was given. The Law spelled out in detail how the Jews were to give their tithes but it DIDN'T establish the tithe.

Again, as I stated earlier, I agree we are not bound by the Law as the OT saints were but this ISN'T a Law thing.

If the Jews in Malachi 3 could rob God by not giving their tithes and offerings then we too can rob God by not giving our tithes and offerings.

The Church replaced the Temple. Our tithes and offerings are to go to our local church.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

HankD,

Are you claiming that your reference to Matthew 5 is applicable to the NT believer? If that which is found in the Gospels is binding on the NT believer as opposed to only the pauline epistles, then how do you reconcile Jesus' admonition to the Pharisees to continue their tithing.
Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ye ought to have done, and not to leave the others undone.

 

[HankD]

You keep saying tithing is a "Law of Moses" thing but tithing occurred BEFORE the Law was given. The Law spelled out in detail how the Jews were to give their tithes but it DIDN'T establish the tithe.

Again, as I stated earlier, I agree we are not bound by the Law as the OT saints were but this ISN'T a Law thing.

I also keep saying that NT Sabbath keepers make the very same claims that Sabbath keeping IS NOT a law thing.

Therefore to be consistent, if we insist on "tithe" then we must insist on the "seventh" day which is emphatically stressed in the OT even to the point of the death penalty.

Since you are intent on insisting that Malachi includes the Church (inspite of the several references to literal Israel), how do you view the following?

Jeremiah 17
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Is God going to burn down the churches who are not sabbath keepers?

Or, who then in your church stones the people who violate the Sabbath?

If one has the right to say that the Sabbath is now something other than the Seventh day why does one not have the right therefore to say that a tithe is something other than 10 percent?

BTW, I never said tithing was not allowed in the Church.

Again here are the NT standards for giving:

2 Corinthians 9:5
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

If the Spirit of God leads you to tithe your income and/or it gives you joy to do so then you would indeed be wrong not to do so. However, you would be equally as wrong to do it grudgingly or of necessity.

Or to make it a Church policy.
What about the babes in Christ who don't have the strength of faith yet to make this kind of a commitment, causing them to perhaps "forsake the assembling".

HankD

 

[HankD]

Are you claiming that your reference to Matthew 5 is applicable to the NT believer?

Primarily I was answering in like kind. Someone had quoted the Gospels, I did likewise.

But as a general principle taught by that passage, yes as it is also taught by Paul as a general principle in 1 Corinthians 13.

HankD

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Are you going to respond to the other part of my post?

 

[Johnv]

So how come it's okay for us to require baptism as a presrequisite for membership, but we can't encourage people to tithe? Seems a bit hypicritical, given that neither is scripturally required.

 

[HankD]

Are you going to respond to the other part of my post?

I assume you mean the following?

then how do you reconcile Jesus' admonition to the Pharisees to continue their tithing.
Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ye ought to have done, and not to leave the others undone.

I didn't think that I had to reconcile it.

I had just relayed to you that I answered in like kind.

A certain individual referenced passages in the Gospels as proof texts concerning "giving" and I showed that (even if they were meant for the Church) they weren't exactly correct even at that.

Similar Church applications of Matthew 5:23-24 are taught in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 13, Ephesians 4:32 and Colossians 3:13.

BYW, I have a question for you: Do you believe that Matthew 13 is for the Church or no?

HankD

 

[PASTOR MHG]

For HankD,

I don't think that my opinion of Matthew 13 is relevant here. If you would like to start another thread, I will be happy to contribute.

I understood your previous posts to lump all NT teachings (Matthew - Revelation) together and in harmony...If my assumption was wrong please forgive me. I was simply pointing out that, if that was the case, it seems your opinion of tithing, would contradict your all inclusive NT doctrine.

 

[AresMan]

Am I alone in this or doesn't anyone else notice that nowhere in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) does it ever speak of tithing money. Not once, anywhere. Please show me anywhere in the Bible where it speaks of someone tithing currency. Note: the Temple tax is not a tithe.

You tithe livestock, produce, ... mint, anise, cummin, etc.
You offer things to be burned on an altar.
You give anything that can be given (including money).

 

[Johnv]

Aresman, remember that livestock and crops were at the time a commoner's form of currency, and the most common tool of trade (livestock couldn't be counterfeited or stolen so easily).

Today, currency is the primary tool of trading. It's not unreasonable for a person today to tithe of currency in lueu of livestock. Considering that I'm a condo owner, it would be difficult for me to maintain any form of livestock, except perhaps for the side of pork in my garage freezer.

 

[AresMan]

Aresman, remember that livestock and crops were at the time a commoner's form of currency, and the most common tool of trade (livestock couldn't be counterfeited or stolen so easily).

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after,
The children of Israel had money when this law was given.

Are you claiming that your reference to Matthew 5 is applicable to the NT believer? If that which is found in the Gospels is binding on the NT believer as opposed to only the pauline epistles, then how do you reconcile Jesus' admonition to the Pharisees to continue their tithing.
Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ye ought to have done, and not to leave the others undone.

People at this time also had money. The Pharisees were tithing more than they had to by tithing of exotic spices, of which the Levites, fatherless, widows, and strangers within their gates could partake; however, as hypocrites, they were emphasizing one aspect of the law more than necessary while forsaking laws of the heart.

It still stands that tithing was never 10% of one's income, it was 10% of the increase of one's harvest. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of anyone tithing money and one cannot make an accurate correlation between tithing a paycheck and tithing the increase of one's yearly harvest other than that 10% of something is involved.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Michael Hobbs:
Uhh? Are you asking for scripture to show that we no longer have to make burnt offerings and that God never intended for a man to have multiple wives?

Yup.

 

[HankD]

Pastor MHG says:

I don't think that my opinion of Matthew 13 is relevant here. If you would like to start another thread, I will be happy to contribute.

I understood your previous posts to lump all NT teachings (Matthew - Revelation) together and in harmony...If my assumption was wrong please forgive me. I was simply pointing out that, if that was the case, it seems your opinion of tithing, would contradict your all inclusive NT doctrine.

The entire Bible is in perfect harmony because it's ultimate author is perfect and cannot contradict Himself. I am not sure what it is you are asking of me. Please be more explicit and I will do my best to answer.

In my mind, it is relevant what one believes concerning Matthew 13 in that it illustrates the principle that at least some portions of the Gospels are directed at church age believers.

This Jesus taught at the end of the Chapter:

Matthew 13
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

HankD