Unequal access to the Gospel.

[12strings]

I know we have discussed this some before, but I'd like to focus it a bit more...

If one of the primary motivating factors against unconditional election is that God passes over some unfairly, through no fault of their own...How does a non cal explain the situation in which multitudes of people in remote places have lived their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel, while other parts of the world have heard the Gospel many times. It certainly doesn't seem that everyone has the same chance to come to Christ, which is one of main accusations against calvinism.

A few points of clarification:

1. Would not a non-cal AT LEAST have to accept that God, while not changing people's wills, at least gives some people access to the Gospel, while many others are "passed over" their whole lives?

2. Some have said in other threads that if the native in a pagan land sees God in nature, and seeks him, then God will provide additional light and send the gospel their, in response to that person's seeking. I'm curious as to where in the Bible they find this.

3. If #2 is true, and each person has a completely free will that may or may not respond positively to God's general revelation in nature, a free will such that God has given no single person any more or less inclination to come to God than any other person...Is it not curious that there have not been more individuals who have sought God, and thereby had the Gospel sent to their locations, rather than what we see currently, where large groups of people still have NO gospel witness? If God worked this way, would there not be at least a few believers in nearly every tribe and village?

 

[mandym]

How does a non cal explain the situation in which multitudes of people in remote places have lived their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel, while other parts of the world have heard the Gospel many times.

Prove it.......

 

[MB]

I know we have discussed this some before, but I'd like to focus it a bit more...

If one of the primary motivating factors against unconditional election is that God passes over some unfairly, through no fault of their own...How does a non cal explain the situation in which multitudes of people in remote places have lived their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel, while other parts of the world have heard the Gospel many times. It certainly doesn't seem that everyone has the same chance to come to Christ, which is one of main accusations against calvinism.

A few points of clarification:

1. Would not a non-cal AT LEAST have to accept that God, while not changing people's wills, at least gives some people access to the Gospel, while many others are "passed over" their whole lives?

2. Some have said in other threads that if the native in a pagan land sees God in nature, and seeks him, then God will provide additional light and send the gospel their, in response to that person's seeking. I'm curious as to where in the Bible they find this.

3. If #2 is true, and each person has a completely free will that may or may not respond positively to God's general revelation in nature, a free will such that God has given no single person any more or less inclination to come to God than any other person...Is it not curious that there have not been more individuals who have sought God, and thereby had the Gospel sent to their locations, rather than what we see currently, where large groups of people still have NO gospel witness? If God worked this way, would there not be at least a few believers in nearly every tribe and village?

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We all know there is God. A lot of people with degrees deny it because they don't want to believe there can be someone greater than they are. Even the rocks cry out. All of creation tells us of a devine creator.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

Your rationalizations are built upon the erroneous premise that it is the gospel that imparts life and immortality. The doctrine of hardline restrictivism is an awful one, and it blinds and shuts off to so much glorious truth that is to be found in the scriptures concerning the amazing grace of our God.

“More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.”

I'm convinced that's just as true today as it was then.

 

[JesusFan]

I know we have discussed this some before, but I'd like to focus it a bit more...

If one of the primary motivating factors against unconditional election is that God passes over some unfairly, through no fault of their own...How does a non cal explain the situation in which multitudes of people in remote places have lived their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel, while other parts of the world have heard the Gospel many times. It certainly doesn't seem that everyone has the same chance to come to Christ, which is one of main accusations against calvinism.

A few points of clarification:

1. Would not a non-cal AT LEAST have to accept that God, while not changing people's wills, at least gives some people access to the Gospel, while many others are "passed over" their whole lives?

2. Some have said in other threads that if the native in a pagan land sees God in nature, and seeks him, then God will provide additional light and send the gospel their, in response to that person's seeking. I'm curious as to where in the Bible they find this.

3. If #2 is true, and each person has a completely free will that may or may not respond positively to God's general revelation in nature, a free will such that God has given no single person any more or less inclination to come to God than any other person...Is it not curious that there have not been more individuals who have sought God, and thereby had the Gospel sent to their locations, rather than what we see currently, where large groups of people still have NO gospel witness? If God worked this way, would there not be at least a few believers in nearly every tribe and village?

Assumes that man deserves to be saved by God, that it would be morally wrong for God to withhold saving mercies to some, while saving others!

ALL are guilty before the Lord, willfully choosing to rebel and sin against God!

We are sinners by both birth and by choice...

Think people have a tough time handling that we are gulity before God due to the fall of Adam, that we still make willful decisions to reject Christ, and that we are born in a lost state, and its Grace that ANY of us able to be saved by God via Cross of Christ!

 

[convicted1]

Your rationalizations are built upon the erroneous premise that it is the gospel that imparts life and immortality. The doctrine of hardline restrictivism is an awful one, and it blinds and shuts off to so much glorious truth that is to be found in the scriptures concerning the amazing grace of our God.

“More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.”

I'm convinced that's just as true today as it was then.

The thing that gets me is that those who claim to be monergists state that God needs no help in saving, but then state that without hearing the gospel from a preacher, they can not be saved. That sounds like "pseudo monogerism" to me at best. Apostle Paul stated emphatically that THE GOSPEL is God's power to save the believer. Can not God save any way He chooses to???

 

[webdog]

What does Acts 17:26-27 say?

 

[freeatlast]

I know we have discussed this some before, but I'd like to focus it a bit more...

If one of the primary motivating factors against unconditional election is that God passes over some unfairly, through no fault of their own...How does a non cal explain the situation in which multitudes of people in remote places have lived their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel, while other parts of the world have heard the Gospel many times. It certainly doesn't seem that everyone has the same chance to come to Christ, which is one of main accusations against calvinism.

A few points of clarification:

1. Would not a non-cal AT LEAST have to accept that God, while not changing people's wills, at least gives some people access to the Gospel, while many others are "passed over" their whole lives?

2. Some have said in other threads that if the native in a pagan land sees God in nature, and seeks him, then God will provide additional light and send the gospel their, in response to that person's seeking. I'm curious as to where in the Bible they find this.

3. If #2 is true, and each person has a completely free will that may or may not respond positively to God's general revelation in nature, a free will such that God has given no single person any more or less inclination to come to God than any other person...Is it not curious that there have not been more individuals who have sought God, and thereby had the Gospel sent to their locations, rather than what we see currently, where large groups of people still have NO gospel witness? If God worked this way, would there not be at least a few believers in nearly every tribe and village?

The assumption that because some are passed over and never hear and that is unfair is a faulty assumption. That assumption assumes they had the right to hear or for them to hear is the fair thing to do. The problem with that assumption is that God is not operating on what is fair. He is operating on grace to whom He will. It was not fair that Christ went to the cross. It was grace out of love. His grace His right to choose with our ability to accept or reject.

The example of whole countries or people not hearing is no different then it has ever been. Israel was chosen above any other people and most of the rest of the world never heard anything about the true and living God. So again trying to combat calvinism or non Cal with this kind of argument is greatly lacking. By the way by now you do know I am not a Calvinist nor a non Cal I assume? So I am not pushing the teachings but rather trying to show the argument you are using will not work.
I am afraid that Americans have become way to comfortable with equality or what we think that is. What may seem like not being equal is God's Sovereign will being exercised along with our ability to choose. If you notice in scripture He puts the burden on us to go and tell so if anything it is not about unequal but about us failing in our calling.

 

[convicted1]

What does Acts 17:26-27 say?

Good point!

 

[zrs6v4]

What does Acts 17:26-27 say?

"and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (Acts 17:26, 27 NASB)"

 

[convicted1]

"and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (Acts 17:26, 27 NASB)"

Acts 17:26-27

NIVActs 17:26-27
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.


YLT
Acts 17:26-27
26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --

27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,


ESVActs 17:26-27
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,


KJVActs 17:26-27
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:


Acts 17:26-27
26 From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live, 27 so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.



CEBActs 17:26-27
26 From one person God created every human nation to live on the whole earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God made the nations so they would seek him, perhaps even reach out to him and find him. In fact, God isn’t far away from any of us.


Now, I have given you multiple translations. What do they mean to you?

 

[12strings]

Well, I may not have stated my question very clearly, but I'll try to clarify as I respond to a few of these posts...Mandym, your're first!

Prove it.......

I don't have proof. However, my whole life I have heard missionaries and missiologists speak of those places where there is no gospel witness, ranging from people groups of a few hundred to several thousand. I'm simply asking how a non-cal who assumes everyone has the same chance to choose God explains this seeming unfairness.

Are you suggesting that these people who speak this way are mistaken, and that there actually are at least one or two Christians sharing the gospel in each and every people group?

 

[12strings]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We all know there is God. A lot of people with degrees deny it because they don't want to believe there can be someone greater than they are. Even the rocks cry out. All of creation tells us of a devine creator.
MB

I agree completely with everything you just said, but these verses do not refer to people coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, rather they show that those people are without excuse when God judges them for their sin.

 

[12strings]

Your rationalizations are built upon the erroneous premise that it is the gospel that imparts life and immortality. The doctrine of hardline restrictivism is an awful one, and it blinds and shuts off to so much glorious truth that is to be found in the scriptures concerning the amazing grace of our God.

“More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.”

I'm convinced that's just as true today as it was then.

I realize that I will simply have to disagree with you, kyr. And I assume you have figured out by now that most on this board DO believe the Gospel is necessary for eternal salvation. I will try to summarize below, please correct me if I misrepresent your position.

As I understand it, there are 3 basic answers to this general question:

-Kyredneck/Primitive Baptists would say: God can and in fact does regerate and save people from every tribe, regardless of whether the gospel goes there or not.
-Most Calvinists would say that God Elects who he will save, and uses the means of the Gospel to save those he has elected. therefore, if someone does not hear the Gospel, it means they were not elect.
-My question is for Non-cals, who seem to be devoted to the idea that God does not choose who he will save, but rather gives everyone the same chance to choose him. That does not seem to fit the reality of large people groups who go whole generations without hearing the Gospel.

 

[12strings]

The example of whole countries or people not hearing is no different then it has ever been. Israel was chosen above any other people and most of the rest of the world never heard anything about the true and living God. So again trying to combat calvinism or non Cal with this kind of argument is greatly lacking. By the way by now you do know I am not a Calvinist nor a non Cal I assume? So I am not pushing the teachings but rather trying to show the argument you are using will not work.
I am afraid that Americans have become way to comfortable with equality or what we think that is. What may seem like not being equal is God's Sovereign will being exercised along with our ability to choose. If you notice in scripture He puts the burden on us to go and tell so if anything it is not about unequal but about us failing in our calling.

I should say that I do believe God simply chooses at different times to give some people more revelation than others. I Believe this is consistent with a doctrine of human depravity, in which no one seeks God (rom 3), and with a belief in sovereign election of some, who are saved by hearing and responding to the Gospel.

What I do not understand is how someone who rejects Depravity and Election explains this situation. It would seem that God is in fact at least choosing some people groups over others, if not individuals...but by choosing the group, is in fact leaving some individuals without Gospel witness.

I beleive your last statement gives a possible explaination for free-willers: If We all have free-will, then in fact, my free-will decision as a Christian to fail to share Christ will then limit the free-will options of another to choose Christ, since I have not told them. (as I said, I believe that If God wants to get the gospel to someone, he will use someone else if I fail.)

 

[12strings]

Acts 17:26-27
Now, I have given you multiple translations. What do they mean to you?

Yes, please. Here we see the problem with quoting scripture without explaining how it applies to a situation.

 

[freeatlast]

I should say that I do believe God simply chooses at different times to give some people more revelation than others. I Believe this is consistent with a doctrine of human depravity, in which no one seeks God (rom 3), and with a belief in sovereign election of some, who are saved by hearing and responding to the Gospel.

What I do not understand is how someone who rejects Depravity and Election explains this situation. It would seem that God is in fact at least choosing some people groups over others, if not individuals...but by choosing the group, is in fact leaving some individuals without Gospel witness.

I beleive your last statement gives a possible explaination for free-willers: If We all have free-will, then in fact, my free-will decision as a Christian to fail to share Christ will then limit the free-will options of another to choose Christ, since I have not told them. (as I said, I believe that If God wants to get the gospel to someone, he will use someone else if I fail.)

When I listen to each side, the Cal. side and the non Cal. side, I can see why each side cannot understand why the other cannot see the other's view. That part is clear to me as one cancles the other when held strictly without the other. However what confuses me is why they hold a dogmatic view on one side when both sides are taught. I don't believe we are commissioned to understand every aspect of the bible, (DEU 29:29) but we are called to believe it. Just because there seems to be some sort of paradox does not mean we are to do away with one side so as to have something more palatable.

I can certainly understand why the view I hold would trouble many if they need to have reasoning or understanding of how it works. For me I am satisfied with just believing both as both are in scripture and doing that without compromising either one for the other. So for me it is 100% election and 100% free will. It is God's problem as to how He works that out and one day perhaps I will understand how He does it.

 

[webdog]

Yes, please. Here we see the problem with quoting scripture without explaining how it applies to a situation.

This thread is about God's grace, and this passage proves His universal grace extends to every human being, even determining the perfect location geographically and within history to seek Him and "perhaps" reach out for Him although He is not far from any of us. Paul was adressing pantheists, not the elect when stating this. Gods is the first cause.