Unfruitful letter writing campaign?

[TCassidy]

I did not remember. One person got saved and one person wanted to get saved. Besides that only God knows the results.

So you are admitting to fruitless ministry?

And how can you not remember? Sapper posted the quote when you said it. Don't you remember that?

 

[Baptist Believer]

This person has not yet shown up to the thread. You think this person is going to actually admit that he is a part of the instant gratification generation?

He's not going to "admit" it because that is a lie. Moreover, I think the person he is attempting to defame is me.

No he said in a thread recently that he tried EE and the tract method and saw no or little results and so switched to a different form of evangelism that saw results.

Yeah, that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would we want to Spirit to bless us and our ministry to bear fruit?

In a recent post where we were asked to share stories of our evangelistic ministries, I wrote of my individual evangelism method (as opposed to corporate efforts with my church that were mentioned immediately prior to this paragraph):

God has blessed my efforts since I stopped doing the door-to-door evangelism, tract distribution work, and Evangelism Explosion type of presentations. I didn't have much success doing things that way. I realized (after I became a commission salesperson to put myself through seminary), that those methods were simply sales methods used by mainstream society. By placing the gospel message in the wrappings of a sales pitch, I diminished the power of the gospel by putting it into a context that our society has trained itself to ignore because of the constant barrage of advertising messages. Instead, I went back to biblical methods that work in our culture. I gave up trusting a method and instead trusted the Spirit to make the appointments and provide the words, power and authority.​

Apparently John could not handle it or comprehend it, and came up with the following defamatory distortion and assumption:

That statement right there indicates that he wants instant results and is a part of the instant gratification generation, or maybe gratification is not the correct term. Whatever he wants instant results and does not want to wait.

If you've actually paid attention to anything I've ever written on the subject of evangelism, you will know that I understand that conversation is usually a long process and that I understand that my role is often NOT at the moment of confession of faith. The majority of the people who come to faith through my personal ministry (often atheists, cultists, or unconverted former church members who have lost faith in the false gospel that they have been taught), take months or years to move to faith in Christ.

For instance, the most recent atheist convert was a teenage girl that I met when she came to the youth group class I was teaching on Wednesday night to challenge me in front of her friends. I think she was somewhere around 15 at the time. She was polite enough to let me know what she was going to do and I welcomed her to do it as long as she was respectful to me and to everyone else. I told her that she was unlikely to ask any question that had not be thought of before by people in the room and that I would be happy to respond to her respectfully. I also told her that she was welcome to all of our events and she did not have to "be" anything but an honest person working through the issues. So she asked some good hard questions in front of the group and I answered them humbly, without debating or demanding anything. I was also careful not to embarrass her in front of others to "win" the argument. She kept coming back - nearly every week - and I would talk with her personally from time to time if she had a specific question. I moved out of youth ministry to a different ministry of the church, but her senior year in high school (about three years after the journey began) she came to faith one day and told the youth minister. She was baptized and has gone off to college, a strong believer because she was given time and space to work things out without people pushing her for "the commitment."

That's rather typical with the kind of people I typically minister to, so your blatantly false claim that I want "instant results" would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.

Tract distribution and contact evangelism as defined by Jon Speed in his book "Evangelism in the NT" does not always see visible results so fast. The results will be seen in heaven.

The results of all kinds of evangelism will be seen at the last judgment, and there will be many on that day who will think they are in good shape because they have read a tract, prayed a prayer, and someone told them that they are going to heaven, but Jesus will say to them, depart from Me for I never know you.

I don't have any fundamental objections to tract distribution, but very few tracts are any good. And too many of them trivialize and distort the gospel. Moreover, the theology of Evangelism Explosion (and the clones) that pulls scripture out of context to do a 1, 2, 3 kind of sales pitch, focuses on a certain theory of atonement and tends to ignore the calling of Jesus to true discipleship. The focus is on going to Heaven when you die and sealing the transaction with prayer - a pitch that is completely foreign to scripture. So I think we do a grave disservice to our hearers when we set aside the biblical gospel and provide a sales pitch alleging that one can get the benefits of the atonement by mental/theoretical assent, sealed with a prayer, instead of true discipleship.

 

[evangelist6589]

He's not going to "admit" it because that is a lie. Moreover, I think the person he is attempting to defame is me.


Yeah, that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would we want to Spirit to bless us and our ministry to bear fruit?

In a recent post where we were asked to share stories of our evangelistic ministries, I wrote of my individual evangelism method (as opposed to corporate efforts with my church that were mentioned immediately prior to this paragraph):

God has blessed my efforts since I stopped doing the door-to-door evangelism, tract distribution work, and Evangelism Explosion type of presentations. I didn't have much success doing things that way. I realized (after I became a commission salesperson to put myself through seminary), that those methods were simply sales methods used by mainstream society. By placing the gospel message in the wrappings of a sales pitch, I diminished the power of the gospel by putting it into a context that our society has trained itself to ignore because of the constant barrage of advertising messages. Instead, I went back to biblical methods that work in our culture. I gave up trusting a method and instead trusted the Spirit to make the appointments and provide the words, power and authority.​

Apparently John could not handle it or comprehend it, and came up with the following defamatory distortion and assumption:


If you've actually paid attention to anything I've ever written on the subject of evangelism, you will know that I understand that conversation is usually a long process and that I understand that my role is often NOT at the moment of confession of faith. The majority of the people who come to faith through my personal ministry (often atheists, cultists, or unconverted former church members who have lost faith in the false gospel that they have been taught), take months or years to move to faith in Christ.

For instance, the most recent atheist convert was a teenage girl that I met when she came to the youth group class I was teaching on Wednesday night to challenge me in front of her friends. I think she was somewhere around 15 at the time. She was polite enough to let me know what she was going to do and I welcomed her to do it as long as she was respectful to me and to everyone else. I told her that she was unlikely to ask any question that had not be thought of before by people in the room and that I would be happy to respond to her respectfully. I also told her that she was welcome to all of our events and she did not have to "be" anything but an honest person working through the issues. So she asked some good hard questions in front of the group and I answered them humbly, without debating or demanding anything. I was also careful not to embarrass her in front of others to "win" the argument. She kept coming back - nearly every week - and I would talk with her personally from time to time if she had a specific question. I moved out of youth ministry to a different ministry of the church, but her senior year in high school (about three years after the journey began) she came to faith one day and told the youth minister. She was baptized and has gone off to college, a strong believer because she was given time and space to work things out without people pushing her for "the commitment."

That's rather typical with the kind of people I typically minister to, so your blatantly false claim that I want "instant results" would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.


The results of all kinds of evangelism will be seen at the last judgment, and there will be many on that day who will think they are in good shape because they have read a tract, prayed a prayer, and someone told them that they are going to heaven, but Jesus will say to them, depart from Me for I never know you.

I don't have any fundamental objections to tract distribution, but very few tracts are any good. And too many of them trivialize and distort the gospel. Moreover, the theology of Evangelism Explosion (and the clones) that pulls scripture out of context to do a 1, 2, 3 kind of sales pitch, focuses on a certain theory of atonement and tends to ignore the calling of Jesus to true discipleship. The focus is on going to Heaven when you die and sealing the transaction with prayer - a pitch that is completely foreign to scripture. So I think we do a grave disservice to our hearers when we set aside the biblical gospel and provide a sales pitch alleging that one can get the benefits of the atonement by mental/theoretical assent, sealed with a prayer, instead of true discipleship.

Then I partly misunderstood you I stand corrected. However you are wrong about your view on gospel tracts. Personally I do not use nor care for EE bye the way and have never used their tracts. Below are some good solid tracts, probably the best written in my view. Perhaps you are not aware of them.

Quest for Joy by John Piper

Quest for Joy (ESV), Pack of 25 Tracts

10 Reasons Jesus came to Die by John Piper

10 Reasons Jesus Came to Die (ESV), Pack of 25 Tracts

Who do you think I am by John MacArthur

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A335/who-do-you-think-that-i-am

What is the Gospel? by Greg Gilbert

What Is the Gospel? Tract (Pack of 25)

The Greatest News Ever Told by Mike Gendron

Welcome to Proclaiming the Gospel - Store

You have been given 5 theologically solid tracts so can no longer argue that most tracts distort the gospel because this is not true.

 

[Reynolds]

I just read a story on social media of a former apostate pastor who repented. I say this because I am involved in the sending of hundreds of letters and gospel tracts to individuals in an effort to get them to repent. One poster on this board said this is a unfruitful letter writing campaign. He says this because he wants instant results because he is a follower of the instant gratification generation. For results one must be patient. Or he may not see the results in his lifetime. I am reading a book called "As it was in the Days of Noah" and Noah certainly did not have any results besides his own household, but he was rewarded by God for his faithfulness and listed in the book of Hebrews hall of faith.

Do you need some of us to mail you a letter about divorce?

 

[evangelist6589]

Do you need some of us to mail you a letter about divorce?

DIVORCE is not an essential of the faith. Unless in your works based mind it is.

 

[TCassidy]

DIVORCE is not an essential of the faith. Unless in your works based mind it is.

Which commands of God are non-essential?

 

[annsni]

DIVORCE is not an essential of the faith. Unless in your works based mind it is.

It is definitely breaking one of the Ten Commandments though.

 

[evangelist6589]

It is definitely breaking one of the Ten Commandments though.

The past is the past and cannot be changed.

 

[JonC]

The past is the past and cannot be changed.

I agree. We cannot change the past - BUT we have to change our own sinfulness which produced the sins of the past. We must repent and "kill" the sin in us. And God is faithful to forgive.

Since you like books, here's one you may find interesting (you can probably find it free as well) - The Mortification of Sin by John Owen.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree. We cannot change the past - BUT we have to change our own sinfulness which produced the sins of the past. We must repent and "kill" the sin in us. And God is faithful to forgive.

Since you like books, here's one you may find interesting (you can probably find it free as well) - The Mortification of Sin by John Owen.

Which version do I buy? iBooks has like 5 of the same name and author.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree. We cannot change the past - BUT we have to change our own sinfulness which produced the sins of the past. We must repent and "kill" the sin in us. And God is faithful to forgive.

Since you like books, here's one you may find interesting (you can probably find it free as well) - The Mortification of Sin by John Owen.

Not free but for $2.00

 

[JonC]

Not free but for $2.00

Definitely worth the purchase.

 

[evangelist6589]

Definitely worth the purchase.

I have always struggled to understand Puritan writers.

 

[JonC]

I have always struggled to understand Puritan writers.

They can be difficult. Try reading slowly, a section at a time. Take the time to understand each section before moving on. It's always a good idea to keep a note pad and jot down any assumptions the author may have made.

Good luck.

 

[JamesL]

He's not going to "admit" it because that is a lie. Moreover, I think the person he is attempting to defame is me.


Yeah, that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would we want to Spirit to bless us and our ministry to bear fruit?

In a recent post where we were asked to share stories of our evangelistic ministries, I wrote of my individual evangelism method (as opposed to corporate efforts with my church that were mentioned immediately prior to this paragraph):

God has blessed my efforts since I stopped doing the door-to-door evangelism, tract distribution work, and Evangelism Explosion type of presentations. I didn't have much success doing things that way. I realized (after I became a commission salesperson to put myself through seminary), that those methods were simply sales methods used by mainstream society. By placing the gospel message in the wrappings of a sales pitch, I diminished the power of the gospel by putting it into a context that our society has trained itself to ignore because of the constant barrage of advertising messages. Instead, I went back to biblical methods that work in our culture. I gave up trusting a method and instead trusted the Spirit to make the appointments and provide the words, power and authority.​

Apparently John could not handle it or comprehend it, and came up with the following defamatory distortion and assumption:


If you've actually paid attention to anything I've ever written on the subject of evangelism, you will know that I understand that conversation is usually a long process and that I understand that my role is often NOT at the moment of confession of faith. The majority of the people who come to faith through my personal ministry (often atheists, cultists, or unconverted former church members who have lost faith in the false gospel that they have been taught), take months or years to move to faith in Christ.

For instance, the most recent atheist convert was a teenage girl that I met when she came to the youth group class I was teaching on Wednesday night to challenge me in front of her friends. I think she was somewhere around 15 at the time. She was polite enough to let me know what she was going to do and I welcomed her to do it as long as she was respectful to me and to everyone else. I told her that she was unlikely to ask any question that had not be thought of before by people in the room and that I would be happy to respond to her respectfully. I also told her that she was welcome to all of our events and she did not have to "be" anything but an honest person working through the issues. So she asked some good hard questions in front of the group and I answered them humbly, without debating or demanding anything. I was also careful not to embarrass her in front of others to "win" the argument. She kept coming back - nearly every week - and I would talk with her personally from time to time if she had a specific question. I moved out of youth ministry to a different ministry of the church, but her senior year in high school (about three years after the journey began) she came to faith one day and told the youth minister. She was baptized and has gone off to college, a strong believer because she was given time and space to work things out without people pushing her for "the commitment."

That's rather typical with the kind of people I typically minister to, so your blatantly false claim that I want "instant results" would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.


The results of all kinds of evangelism will be seen at the last judgment, and there will be many on that day who will think they are in good shape because they have read a tract, prayed a prayer, and someone told them that they are going to heaven, but Jesus will say to them, depart from Me for I never know you.

I don't have any fundamental objections to tract distribution, but very few tracts are any good. And too many of them trivialize and distort the gospel. Moreover, the theology of Evangelism Explosion (and the clones) that pulls scripture out of context to do a 1, 2, 3 kind of sales pitch, focuses on a certain theory of atonement and tends to ignore the calling of Jesus to true discipleship. The focus is on going to Heaven when you die and sealing the transaction with prayer - a pitch that is completely foreign to scripture. So I think we do a grave disservice to our hearers when we set aside the biblical gospel and provide a sales pitch alleging that one can get the benefits of the atonement by mental/theoretical assent, sealed with a prayer, instead of true discipleship.

Your story about the atheist teenager was really moving. You seem to have a calling to minister to a similar demographic as I come from and am called to - the "churched lost"

Those who were raised in church with this "sales pitch" of going to heaven, and the purchase price is one "Prayer of Attrition"

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I just read a story on social media of a former apostate pastor who repented. I say this because I am involved in the sending of hundreds of letters and gospel tracts to individuals in an effort to get them to repent. One poster on this board said this is a unfruitful letter writing campaign. He says this because he wants instant results because he is a follower of the instant gratification generation. For results one must be patient. Or he may not see the results in his lifetime. I am reading a book called "As it was in the Days of Noah" and Noah certainly did not have any results besides his own household, but he was rewarded by God for his faithfulness and listed in the book of Hebrews hall of faith.

Are you trying to sow discord here? I don't know who you're speaking about, but it doesn't matter, because what you have done is an attempt at character association.

Show some charity.

Ephesians 4:29 ESV

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


James 1:26 ESV
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Wrong! I am pointing out that anything can bring a person to repentance including a letter! Paul wrote them! So did many in the past!

You place too much of an emphasis on results and so misinterpret what it means to have fruit. Noah did not have a single convert in his 120 years of preaching and God does not always guarantee visible results for us to see.

And who says I have had no fruit?

Your willingness to name-call is a not a sign of good fruit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

The past is the past and cannot be changed.

Unless your wife is dead things CAN be changed.

I don't know a thing about your marriage but Jesus did condemn divorce.

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay. So winning family members to Christ doesn't count? So when Andrew brought Peter to Christ, that didn't count?

Every Christian's ministry starts at home. And a man's family are the credentials that God expects to confirm his ministry. By abandoning his family a man abandons his ministry and the confirmation of his ministry.

Family are our most important converts.

Good thing Noah did not divorce his wife before the flood.

 

[agedman]

Wrong! I am pointing out that anything can bring a person to repentance including a letter! Paul wrote them! So did many in the past!

There is that worldly sorrow, it looks good, but it has no long-term life altering characteristics.

Then there is that Godly repentance, that only the work of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give.

"Letter writing" in itself is not bad, for a great hymn came from a man who wrote a condolence letter to his mother. (What a Friend We have in Jesus)

However, without BOTH the Scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit, ANY communication is not going to result in believers.