Unhitch the OT?

[church mouse guy]

How can a person be justified by the moral standards of the Ten Commandments? God gave them to control the wicked Jews. There is no morality in them. The Jews thought they were good for not stealing, even though they wanted to. And the more they wanted to steal and did not, the better they thought they were.

But the faithful like Abraham did not want to steal. The did the opposite of stealing, they gave and delighted in it. Why? because of the New Birth and the Two Great Commandments uncovered in their hearts.

So are you saying that you are less depraved than a Jew? A person sins by thought, word, and deed. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? Thoughts are morally as evil as deeds, aren't they? I mean that if you look at a woman with lust, then you are guilty of adultery, aren't you?

 

[1689Dave]

So are you saying that you are less depraved than a Jew? A person sins by thought, word, and deed. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? Thoughts are morally as evil as deeds, aren't they? I mean that if you look at a woman with lust, then you are guilty of adultery, aren't you?

You are spiritualizing the Ten Commandments and this is good. It is what Jesus did in the Sermon on the Mount. But the wicked unregenerate Jews to whom the Commandments applied, did not have the ability to spiritualize them.

They thought they were good for not stealing even though they wanted to. But since good people do not need laws, Abraham and other believers did not want to steal. They understood the Two Great Commandments and gave from a heart of love instead of stealing.

 

[church mouse guy]

You are spiritualizing the Ten Commandments and this is good. It is what Jesus did in the Sermon on the Mount. But the wicked unregenerate Jews to whom the Commandments applied, did not have the ability to spiritualize them.

They thought they were good for not stealing even though they wanted to. But since good people do not need laws, Abraham and other believers did not want to steal. They understood the Two Great Commandments and gave from a heart of love instead of stealing.

How did I spiritualize the Ten Commandments?

 

[1689Dave]

How did I spiritualize the Ten Commandments?

The Sermon on the Mount is the Ten Commandments spiritualized. If you spiritualize them, you wind up with the Two Great Commandments and the whole of NT ethics. The wicked Jews could not do this without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Matt Black]

Back to the OP: sounds like remixed Marcionist heresy.

 

[Yeshua1]

How can a person be justified by the moral standards of the Ten Commandments? God gave them to control the wicked Jews. There is no morality in them. The Jews thought they were good for not stealing, even though they wanted to. And the more they wanted to steal and did not, the better they thought they were.

But the faithful like Abraham did not want to steal. The did the opposite of stealing, they gave and delighted in it. Why? because of the New Birth and the Two Great Commandments uncovered in their hearts.

What Commandments did the Apostles of Jesus bring back over to us now under the NC though, as the ones to be kept? Hint, was more than just 2!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Sermon on the Mount is the Ten Commandments spiritualized. If you spiritualize them, you wind up with the Two Great Commandments and the whole of NT ethics. The wicked Jews could not do this without the Holy Spirit.

We are NOT saying that a sinner gets saved by keeping the law, nor kept by doing that, but the NT does indeed state to us the Moral code/Law the 10 represented are still intact for us to follow today!

 

[1689Dave]

We are NOT saying that a sinner gets saved by keeping the law, nor kept by doing that, but the NT does indeed state to us the Moral code/Law the 10 represented are still intact for us to follow today!

You can do this two ways. You can spiritualize the Ten Commandments and arrive at the Two Great Commandments. Or you can simply live according to the Two Great Commandments and fulfill the Ten. “But if you fulfill the royal law as expressed in this scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.” (James 2:8) (NET)

 

[1689Dave]

What Commandments did the Apostles of Jesus bring back over to us now under the NC though, as the ones to be kept? Hint, was more than just 2!

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

Back to the OP: sounds like remixed Marcionist heresy.

Not actually, this has nothing to do with Marcion, but everything to do with Jeremiah and the writer of Hebrews.

“But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Hebrews 8:8–10) (NET)


“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)


““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.“But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (NET)

 

[Yeshua1]

Back to the OP: sounds like remixed Marcionist heresy.

How so?

Not actually, this has nothing to do with Marcion, but everything to do with Jeremiah and the writer of Hebrews.

“But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Hebrews 8:8–10) (NET)


“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)


““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.“But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (NET)

God still has a moral standard that we need to uphold, correct?

 

[church mouse guy]

The Sermon on the Mount is the Ten Commandments spiritualized. If you spiritualize them, you wind up with the Two Great Commandments and the whole of NT ethics. The wicked Jews could not do this without the Holy Spirit.

I think that the problem must be the definition of "spiritualize." Merriam-Webster says this:

1 : to make spiritual; especially : to purify from the corrupting influences of the world
2 : to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense

Now Jesus did not spiritualize the Ten Commandments. He said that if you looked at a woman with lust, you were guilty of adultery, etc. What is spiritual about being guilty of adultery? It is totally carnal. The human mind is carnal, also. Everyone sins constantly. Everyone needs to be washed in the Blood of Jesus constantly.

1 John 1:8 (KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[1689Dave]

I think that the problem must be the definition of "spiritualize." Merriam-Webster says this:

1 : to make spiritual; especially : to purify from the corrupting influences of the world
2 : to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense

Now Jesus did not spiritualize the Ten Commandments. He said that if you looked at a woman with lust, you were guilty of adultery, etc. What is spiritual about being guilty of adultery? It is totally carnal. The human mind is carnal, also. Everyone sins constantly. Everyone needs to be washed in the Blood of Jesus constantly.

1 John 1:8 (KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We can wrangle over definitions. Simply put, Jesus interpreted the Ten Commandments according to the Two Great Commandments. And if you do this, you will also arrive at the Two Great Commandments. Or, you can live according to the Two Great Commandments, and experience Jesus' interpretation of the Ten Commandments because both lead to the same place. Loving God with all of your body, soul and strength, and your neighbor (enemy) as your own self.

 

[1689Dave]

How so?

God still has a moral standard that we need to uphold, correct?

Yes, the same moral standard believers of all time upheld. The Two Great Commandments. If you love God and neighbor, you won't want to steal or murder.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, the same moral standard believers of all time upheld. The Two Great Commandments. If you love God and neighbor, you won't want to steal or murder.

God gave us 10 of them, not 2...

 

[church mouse guy]

We can wrangle over definitions. Simply put, Jesus interpreted the Ten Commandments according to the Two Great Commandments. And if you do this, you will also arrive at the Two Great Commandments. Or, you can live according to the Two Great Commandments, and experience Jesus' interpretation of the Ten Commandments because both lead to the same place. Loving God with all of your body, soul and strength, and your neighbor (enemy) as your own self.

So how can you do that if you are guilty of adultery?

 

[Matt Black]

How so?

Ditching the OT: that's exactly what Marcion advocated

 

[Yeshua1]

Ditching the OT: that's exactly what Marcion advocated

AS seems to be agreeing with him!

 

[Matt Black]

Exactly

 

[1689Dave]

So how can you do that if you are guilty of adultery?

If you love God and others, you won't commit adultery.