Unions, have they overstayed their welcome?

[convicted1]

Bro. AresMan made the statement that labor unions have overstayed their welcome. Well, coming from a home where my dad lost his job on more than one occasion trying to organize a non-union strip mine, this hits close to home. Without unions, the mines will not have someone to keep them in check. Look at the Massey Energy mines here in WVa that have exploded in the last few years. Here's a link to the "Upper Big Branch" mine in Raleigh County, WV:

http://www.msha.gov/performancecoal/performancecoal.asp

Here's an excerpt from it for y'all to read:

Statement by MSHA Assistant Secretary Joseph A. Main
on release of Upper Big Branch Independent Investigation Report

Joseph A. Main, assistant secretary of labor for mine safety and health, today (5/19/2011) issued the following statement regarding the release of the Upper Big Branch Independent Investigation Report:

"Maintaining a safe mine is the responsibility of the mine operator. The tragedy at the Upper Big Branch Mine was entirely preventable, and basic safety practices were not followed by Massey Energy. Those were the major findings in the Governor's Independent Investigation Panel's report on Upper Big Branch, released today.

From the Sago mine explosion in Upshur County WVa in January 2006:

http://www.wju.edu/sago/SagoMineDisasterReport_July2006.pdf

From testimony provided to investigators and
at the public hearing in Buckhannon on May
2-4, 2006, it is clear that ICG failed to properly
ground the mine’s electrical power infrastructure
in its entirety, and failed to install lightning
arrestors at some key locations as required
by federal regulations. Pending further
investigation, the question of whether these
failures directly contributed to the explosion
and subsequent loss of life remains to be
resolved, but there is no question that they
represent serious failures of mine management.

So, here are two examples of mines failing to meet federal standards. With a job being union, they stand a better chance of maintaining these standards.

Here is a story my dad told me a few years ago.

Dad was at a doctor's office somewhere between 1973-74. There was an old man sitting there, who told dad he was 91 at that time, and in his shirt pocket, there was what looked like an old UMWA insurance card. They began talking about the mines, and he asked dad if the mines he worked at was union, and dad said that just a while back, they voted for the job going union, and lost something like 90-20. He then told dad, "Young man, I want to tell you how it was in my day. You went in to work @ 4:00am and worked until either 10:00pm, and sometimes until 2:00am the next morning. If you broke you tools, you paid for them. They said if you don't like the working conditions, take your bucket and leave, there's someone at the bottom of the hill, waiting to take your job." He then told dad that he would rather take himself and his whole family and go and stay in redhot hell for all of eternity than to go back to working before there was a union.

Now, I am not saying that unions are morally perfect, because they are composed of humans, and humans aren't perfect. But I'd take my chances with a union any day, than not.

 

[convicted1]

http://www.matewan.com/History/battle.htm

Here's an excerpt from this article:

The coal operators resisted as strongly as expected; when a miner joined the union, he was immediately fired from his job. If he lived in a company-owned home -- as most did -- he was told to move out. If he didn't move out, gun-bearing Baldwin-Felts "detectives" evicted him and his family, setting his furniture out on the road. Despite that kind of opposition, miners by the hundreds along the Tug Fork joined the union. By May 15, 1920, three thousand Tug Fork miners had joined.

 

[convicted1]

http://homepage.mac.com/barbarap2/home/laborcrises/Harlan.htm

Here's an excerpt from this article:

Many of these towns did not respect the privacy of any of the coal workers. They did things such as going through their mail and not letting them have access to certain newspapers. "During the summer of 1931 strike in Harlan County, Kentucky, at least seven large coal companies in the surrounding states forbid the possession of the delivery of the Knoxville News- Sentinel in their towns". Articles on mining unions were printed in this paper and the company owners didn't want the workers to read this. The company owners also read the workers' mail. "If a letter was read which was deemed by the company to be offensive or in any way derogatory towards the owners, then the mail was destroyed". "Since the only post office which was available in the town was located at the company store, the miners were unable to obtain the freedom of speech which is federally guaranteed to all other citizens".

Not only was the freedom of the coal miner taken from him, many times his life was also. "The coal operators and owner sacrificed the coal miner's safety to better their profits" . Many coal miners lost their lives trying to make a living for their family. These unsatisfactory living conditions, dangerous working conditions, and wage disputes led to the organizing of unions, and the miners soon formed the "Harlan chapter of the United Mine Workers Association ".

 

[convicted1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers


Here's an excerpt from wikipedia:

Safety and health in the mines

Being a miner in the 19th century meant long hours of continuous hard labor. For many workers, it was not unusual to be accustomed to long hours in the dark mines. Since miners were paid per ton of coal they produced each day workers would arrive as early as possible and stay till they physically were exhausted. Because of working in the mines, many health issues arose. One problem was that a majority of the areas being mined were on average 3–5 feet high. This meant that most miners worked all day without standing upright. Because a lot of the coal mines were hard to access by an average man, the demand for young boys to work in the mines grew. More inexperienced miners led to more accidents. Another health concern was the amount of dust that a miner breathed in each day. Now we know that it causes the disease black lung, but then, few miners knew what effects that this job would have on their bodies. Safety was also a big concern, most coal companies wanted to produce the cheapest coal, so in return they would not update or replace old existing tools and carts. This led to miners becoming injured on a daily basis. However, most companies did not get into conflict over the deaths because miners would typically work alone or in pairs, meaning that an accident would only harm two people and not a large quantity. As mining became more of a demand, the workers started to understand that something could be done to improve the working conditions, and that something must be done soon before any more lives were lost. The health and safety concerns of miners in the early 19th century were what prompted the labor movements to begin.

 

[Don]

Nice.

Now let's see your analysis of the unions in Wisconsin that were affected by that state's limiting of their collective bargaining power.

 

[convicted1]

Here's is something I found interesting in this article:

http://www.postcrescent.com/article...Scott-Walker-s-collective-bargaining-proposal

State workers have already made sacrifices to help balance the budget, through 16 unpaid furlough days and no pay increases the past two years, said Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin State Employees Union that represents 20,000 workers statewide.

State workers were already taking 16 unpaid days off to help Wisconsin out.


http://www.journaltimes.com/news/lo...cle_bd39a0d0-38a5-11e0-b336-001cc4c03286.html

The bill proposed by Gov. Scott Walker to restrict collective bargaining for most public employees would likely drive workers from the public sector and the state, according to legal and economic experts.

Those experts said the bill would keep public employee wages down, create contentious and protest-filled union-employer relations and cause confusion about labor issues, all culminating in public employees eventually leaving for private sector jobs or work in other states.[/B]

So, workers are to keep their wages down, while all these state senates across america can vote themselves a raise?? Hmmmmm........


I stand corrected about the pay raise:

Walker's bill also would eliminate collective bargaining for everything but wages for all public employees except law enforcement and fire personnel; city and county workers as well as school teachers and employees of the University of Wisconsin System would be affected. Employee groups could bargain for wages but any wage increases would not be able to exceed the increase in the Consumer Price Index unless approved in a referendum.

But, it seems that the state can unilaterally change things such as health care providers, 401k, etc., without any protesting from the work forces because of their decreased bargaining rights. Now, someone, anyone, tell me how the Republicans cry for less government, and then in Ohio and Wisconsin, pass a bill that limits the rights of the work force? How is the less government??

 

[convicted1]

Massey Energy(which recently out to Alpha Natuarl Resources) is a largely(if not entirely) non-union coal operator, who has repeatedly failed to meet federal standards in regards to coal operation. I will provide a few links to prove this claim.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/17/AR2008011702838.html

Here's a little excerpt:

"This is a signal that, you know, EPA is on the job," Klepp said. A years-long investigation had shown that Massey neglected environmental safeguards, he said, adding: "They had other priorities. We think this agreement is going to refocus the priorities."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125864847

Here's an excerpt:

An NPR News Investigation shows that the Upper Big Branch mine in West Virginia is not the only Massey Energy mine with a litany of safety violations, citations and fines.

Same article:

Four Massey mines had injury rates more than twice the national rate last year. The national rate is 4.03 injuries per 200,000 worker hours. Massey's Tiller No. 1 mine in Tazewell, Va., had the company's highest injury rate at 9.78. The other high-injury mines are Slip Ridge Cedar Grove (9.18) in Raleigh, W.Va., M 3 Energy Mining's No. 1 (8.86) in Pike County, Ky., and Solid Energy Mining's Mine No. 1 (8.49), which is also in Pike County.

Together last year, the 10 Massey mines with above-average injury rates received 2,400 safety citations.

Here's an article where Massey Energy's CEO, Don Blankenship and WVa Supreme Court Judge Elliott "Spike" Maynard had been in France(French Riveria) in 2006, while Massey Energy was appealling a case that had them paying more than 76 million dollars in fines. Spike Maynard voted in favor of Massey Energy and the vote count was 3-2 in favor of Massey Energy. ABC's 20/20 did a show about this.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/archive/s_548306.html


I was born union, I live union(though my job isn't), and I'll die union. The union is what helped to keep this country going for years. You take the union out, and watch the pay scale drop like a rock.

 

[NiteShift]

But, it seems that the state can unilaterally change things such as health care providers, 401k, etc., without any protesting from the work forces because of their decreased bargaining rights. Now, someone, anyone, tell me how the Republicans cry for less government, and then in Ohio and Wisconsin, pass a bill that limits the rights of the work force? How is the less government??

Taxpayers in Wisconsin likely don't consider the Walker bill to be more government when it saves them money, and in some cases is saving school districts:

"Now the bill is law, and we have some very early evidence of how it is working. And for one beleaguered Wisconsin school district, it's a godsend, not a disaster.

"The Kaukauna School District, in the Fox River Valley of Wisconsin near Appleton...has struggled in recent times and this year faced a deficit of $400,000. But after the law went into effect, at 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, school officials put in place new policies they estimate will turn that $400,000 deficit into a $1.5 million surplus. And it's all because of the very provisions that union leaders predicted would be disastrous.

"In the past, teachers and other staff at Kaukauna were required to pay 10 percent of the cost of their health insurance coverage and none of their pension costs. Now, they'll pay 12.6 percent of the cost of their coverage (still well below rates in much of the private sector) and also contribute 5.8 percent of salary to their pensions. The changes will save the school board an estimated $1.2 million this year

"In the past, Kaukauna's agreement with the teachers union required the school district to purchase health insurance coverage from something called WEA Trust -- a company created by the Wisconsin teachers union...

"Now...the school district is free to shop around for coverage. And all of a sudden, WEA Trust has changed its position. With these changes, the schools could go out for bids, and lo and behold, WEA Trust said, 'We can match the lowest bid.'"

 

[Matt Black]

What alternative would anti-unioners here propose to protect the rights, bargaining power and safety of blue-collar workers against powerful bosses?

 

[NiteShift]

What alternative would anti-unioners here propose to protect the rights, bargaining power and safety of blue-collar workers against powerful bosses?

In my state there is a fair labor board (have forgotten the exact title) to arbitrate labor disputes. Years ago I asked for their help with a former employer who was withholding pay that I was owed. The Board took care of the situation pretty quickly. A union couldn't have done any better.

 

[Matt Black]

What sanctions have the Board got if the employer rejects their arbitration or fails to comply? Plus, how is it funded?

 

[Don]

Here's is something I found interesting in this article:

http://www.postcrescent.com/article...Scott-Walker-s-collective-bargaining-proposal

State workers were already taking 16 unpaid days off to help Wisconsin out.

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_bd39a0d0-38a5-11e0-b336-001cc4c03286.html

So, workers are to keep their wages down, while all these state senates across america can vote themselves a raise?? Hmmmmm........

I stand corrected about the pay raise:

But, it seems that the state can unilaterally change things such as health care providers, 401k, etc., without any protesting from the work forces because of their decreased bargaining rights. Now, someone, anyone, tell me how the Republicans cry for less government, and then in Ohio and Wisconsin, pass a bill that limits the rights of the work force? How is the less government??

1) Did you notice the dates on the two articles you presented? Now, factor those dates with today's date, and ask yourself this: What happened to all the predicted doom-and-gloom? The schools are open, teachers are teaching, the streets are getting cleaned, and the prisons have guards (see the Journal-Times article).

2) Did you see what Niteshift wrote? There is actually more than one school district in Wisconsin that is finding out they're actually now in better shape.

3) Over the last few weeks, there was a recall election; did you happen to notice the results? The people of Wisconsin basically voted to keep the Republican-controlled Senate; so either they're just stupid, or they think the Republicans are actually doing something good for their state....

As I posted in another thread: I really, really encourage you to do some reading and research into the opposite viewpoint. I don't intend that to be an encouragement to change your viewpoint; I just think it might help balance your posts.

-----
With regards to the coal mining - the question has to be asked: where was the government oversight? With what I personally know about environment, OSHA, etc., etc., rules and regulations that *have* to be complied with; how did any of those mines you've brought up *not* get shut down for non-compliance? Especially the ones that had been written up more than once? In a case like this, where the government is failing in its self-appointed watchdog duties, I wholeheartedly support the union that is fighting to ensure safety of the mine workers.

In a case like Wisconsin, where the union is fighting to be able to continue requiring its members to pay dues; where the union is fighting to be able to choose its preferred healthcare lender, which costs the school districts more than it should and decreases their ability to properly fund the educational programs...well, that's a completely different ball of wax.

 

[NiteShift]

What sanctions have the Board got if the employer rejects their arbitration or fails to comply? Plus, how is it funded?

I assume that any dispute would have gone to a full hearing had my ex-employer wanted to go that route. In the event they paid up quickly so I don't honestly know.

It is a state agency and funded through state revenue.

 

[NiteShift]

1) As I posted in another thread: I really, really encourage you to do some reading and research into the opposite viewpoint. I don't intend that to be an encouragement to change your viewpoint; I just think it might help balance your posts.

He sounds like a New Deal Democrat through and through:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

He sounds like a New Deal Democrat through and through:thumbs:

Being a New Deal Democrat is better than an "No Deal Republican". Here's a challenge for any anti-union person on here: show me where the Republicans ever did anything to support unions. I am sure there are some pro-union Reps out there, but as a whole, they have always supported big businesses.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps you have not seen the life of a miner prior to John L Lewis & the unions? I come from 6 generations of miners & I will tell you it was a slave labor job. My grandfathers both worked there one as young as 8 years old....it was not pleasant & you were literally owned by your employer.

I would not want labor & their families to go back to that lifestyle.....however teachers unions are ridiculous. Thats another story.

 

[DiamondLady]

IMO there are unions, and then there are unions. The miners union is one that still works for their members. Most unions work for the advancement of the union.

 

[mandym]

Unions can be a good thing. But to support any and all unions blindly is a mistake. Many of the unions have become as corrupt as some businesses. The AFL-CIO is a corrupt and political arm of the left wing.

When the union demands pay and benefits that far exceed what the industry will sustain then it destroys businesses like it did the car industry. There seems to be no top end level with unions. They just push and push.

When the number of retired union employees receiving full pay exceeds the number of working union employees then it will destroy a company.

Unions are hurting themselves with their excesses. By the way Ohio's credit rating was just upgraded after getting excessive spending under control to include the excesses with the unions.

 

[Matt Black]

IMO there are unions, and then there are unions. The miners union is one that still works for their members. Most unions work for the advancement of the union.

Slight correction (as far as it applies this side of the Pond): many (I won't say most) union bosses work for the advancement of themselves.

 

[DiamondLady]

Slight correction (as far as it applies this side of the Pond): many (I won't say most) union bosses work for the advancement of themselves.

I agree, but what I meant was that here many unions have become nothing more than a big political action committee, spending their time and money lobbying Congress and advancing the union rather than working to benefit their employees. The teacher's unions are a good example of this. They lobby Congress a lot and put a lot of money into politicians war chests but what benefit, if any, goes to benefit the children? Our education system is broken and the first thing that should go is the union. And before anybody jumps down my throat...I am a retired teacher.