United Methodist bishops acknowledge breakup is imminent

[Earth Wind and Fire]

dont know if "most" - as this could be a major split in the UM - and The Global Methodist Church is being organized
Global Methodist Church - Wikipedia

Leadership of the GMC : About Us | Support Our Mission | Global Methodist Church

Wow, this board hasn’t as yet had a representative of U M come forth to explain the schism… I find that interesting. A Methodist Pastor friend of mine just died so I can’t tap into the heart of this. Wish Pastor Durant was still active on this forum to give his take. Oh well, will have to muddle through it. Perhaps being Arminian and liberal is too much for most congregants.

Any consolation, the Presbyterian church USA is worse.

 

[Salty]

I dont believe that Pastor Durant is still with the Methodist church.
I will see if I can contact him

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I dont believe that Pastor Durant is still with the Methodist church.
I will see if I can contact him

Not necessary….however he did receive his education from them… and I’ve always liked and appreciated his thoughts on subjects.

 

[Salty]

I did send him an email .. will keep you posted

 

[Deadworm]

The legal ruling document for the UMC is their Book of Discipline which prohibits gay marriage and gay ordination. Progressives have introduced motions to delete these prohibitions at every quadrenniel conference since 1973. These motions always lose because voting depends on delegates and the number of delegates is proportionate to membership. Like other mainline US denominations, the American UMC has endured a slow steady decline for decades, but there has been a great revival and expansion of UMC methodism (very evangelical) in Third World countries, especially in Africa, and so, the pro-gay progressive agenda has always been voted down. These constant defeats have ignited rebellions in regional US conferences, which paradoxically insist that ordinands obey The Book of Discipline, and yet, perform gay marriages and ordinations, despite this contradiction.

Our quadrenniel conferences have been discontinued in recent years due to Covid and visa problems, but the progressive agenda would have been defeated with finality, had this conference occurred. So both sides decided they couldn't wait and unilaterally agreed to split last Spring. Hundreds of US UMC churches quickly left the UMC amd our local UMC church left just last week. The evangelical wing of the schism is a new denomination called The Global Methodist Church.
By the way, you should reassess your stereotypes of the UMC, the 2nd largest US Protestant denomination. The UMC hired me as a tongues-speaking Pentecostal and my replacement upon my retirement also speaks in tongues. In fact, when he was Spirit-baptized, he spoke in fluent Korean, a language he never studied--a fact confirmed by a Korean member who heard his extensive message in tongues. In one of the UMC churches I pastored, we witnessed miracles as spectacular as any miracle stories in the Gospels. Though some of our members have spoken in tongues, I never promoted this while I was pastor. Indeed, in my first 21 years in a huge Canadian Pentecostal church, not once was there a sermon on tongues!

 

[Walter]

Believers baptism as a symbolic dunking was never taught by the apostles, as of it is something you are doing as your, “first step of obedience. Nor is it taught by any church father or Council or anywhere in church history. Sacred Scripture clearly teaches baptismal regeneration, private confession and holy absolution (Office of the Keys), the true corporal body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist for the forgiveness of sins, etc.

Episcopal form of church polity happened very early. They did not have churches bushwhacking their own theology. Non sacramental churches like Baptist were never a thing. And if you are going to be honest, the church did not have the fullness of the New Testament scripture right away, they relied on tradition, and theological disputes were settled through councils, etc.

The early church was also very liturgical, they believe in the real corporal body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. They did not teach a symbolic view of the Eucharist!

All theology is Christology, and doctrine shapes worship practices. The historic liturgy transcends across generational lines, it is the ancient worship of the church. It is Christocentric worship.

Baptist/Reformed worship practices, are the result of primary because of their errors in Christology. It really boils down to Christology and the rejection of sacraments (e.g. the “Reformed” Errors that affect the two natures in Christ). Liturgical worship has a sense of mystery, sacredness, and beauty. Even the building architecture have a lot to say about theology of the church.

Scripture give witness to the faithfulness of liturgical worship and its power to unify the Church, to faithfully teach God’s people, respect her traditions, and to reflect the unity of the one true God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – whom we worship. Additionally, liturgy serves chiefly for the proper administration of the Word (Law/Gospel) and Sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar).

Passages from Scripture that testify to the need for faithfulness in liturgical worshipGenesis 13:18 Exodus 25:9 Exodus 28:1-2 II Chronicles 29:27-30 I Corinthians 14:26-33Hebrews 10:24-25 Hebrews 8:2, 6Revelation 4 Revelation 5 Revelation 7:9-12Revelation 15:2-4 Revelation 19:1-8 etc. The errors of Nestorius was literally resurrected by Zwingli.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live.

Let be honest!! The Baptist church resembles nothing of the historic church. They disconnected themselves from the historic, sacramental and liturgical life of the church.

For perspective I am a confessional Lutheran.

NALED IT!!!!

 

[Salty]

... The Baptist church resembles nothing of the historic church. ... ...

FWIW - there is no such thing as "The Baptist church"

 

[Mike Stidham]

dont know if "most" - as this could be a major split in the UM - and The Global Methodist Church is being organized
Global Methodist Church - Wikipedia

Leadership of the GMC : About Us | Support Our Mission | Global Methodist Church

This represents the development of an infrastructure for a post-schism conservative Methodist denomination, growing out of the Wesleyan Covenant Association. I know of some churches here in Illinois that are planning to be part of the GMC.

 

[Mike Stidham]

The legal ruling document for the UMC is their Book of Discipline which prohibits gay marriage and gay ordination. Progressives have introduced motions to delete these prohibitions at every quadrenniel conference since 1973. These motions always lose because voting depends on delegates and the number of delegates is proportionate to membership. Like other mainline US denominations, the American UMC has endured a slow steady decline for decades, but there has been a great revival and expansion of UMC methodism (very evangelical) in Third World countries, especially in Africa, and so, the pro-gay progressive agenda has always been voted down. These constant defeats have ignited rebellions in regional US conferences, which paradoxically insist that ordinands obey The Book of Discipline, and yet, perform gay marriages and ordinations, despite this contradiction.

Our quadrenniel conferences have been discontinued in recent years due to Covid and visa problems, but the progressive agenda would have been defeated with finality, had this conference occurred. So both sides decided they couldn't wait and unilaterally agreed to split last Spring. Hundreds of US UMC churches quickly left the UMC amd our local UMC church left just last week. The evangelical wing of the schism is a new denomination called The Global Methodist Church.
By the way, you should reassess your stereotypes of the UMC, the 2nd largest US Protestant denomination. The UMC hired me as a tongues-speaking Pentecostal and my replacement upon my retirement also speaks in tongues. In fact, when he was Spirit-baptized, he spoke in fluent Korean, a language he never studied--a fact confirmed by a Korean member who heard his extensive message in tongues. In one of the UMC churches I pastored, we witnessed miracles as spectacular as any miracle stories in the Gospels. Though some of our members have spoken in tongues, I never promoted this while I was pastor. Indeed, in my first 21 years in a huge Canadian Pentecostal church, not once was there a sermon on tongues!

This is as close to a perfect explanation of the nature of the coming schism as you're going to get. The perpetual rescheduling of the General Conference "due to COVID", etc. was starting to be seen as just another case of the UMC Bishops "kicking the can down the road" to avoid schism as they had been doing for at least the last 25 years. When talk of not having a GC in 2024 "because of COVID and visas" started, the conservatives in UMC said "enough already" and announced the kickoff of GMC in May.

 

[Walter]

There was a true church of Christ way before the Roman one!

Not according to church history.

 

[Salty]

Not according to church history.

1) you mean according the Roman Catholic Church History

 

[Walter]

1) you mean according the Roman Catholic Church History

So all the 'Baptistic church history' which is non-existent, must have been destroyed by those evil Catholics? Funny how none of gnostic writers and other heretical writings were not destroyed along with them. What happened? So, just where, when and who were these Baptistic churches that you say existed. There must some evidence somewhere, eh?

I can quote Baptist historians that say you are a product of the Reformation, but you will hold on to the fantasy that your churches existed even without one smidgeon of historical evidence to support it.

 

[Salty]

They existed - maybe necessarily not with the name Baptist - but with solid doctrine.
How is it that RCC churches have added so many things to doctrine? Much of which is
is not Biblical

 

[Walter]

They existed - maybe necessarily not with the name Baptist - but with solid doctrine.
How is it that RCC churches have added so many things to doctrine? Much of which is
is not Biblical

They existed? Let's see examples of these Baptistic churches with solid doctrine. All the early break away churches that SDA, LDS, JW's and Baptist latch onto had serious doctrinal problems and many of them looked much more Catholic than anything your church looks like. Look at the Waldenses! Catholic to the core!

All of the historical documents show that, in essence, the closest thing we have today to the early Church is actually the Catholic Church. In these main points the Catholic Church is today what she has always been. Her leadership is unapologetically monarchical and hierarchical. Her teaching authority is centralized and universal, and the pope is what he has always been, the universal pastor of Christ’s Church, the steward of Christ’s kingdom and the Rock on which Christ builds his Church.

 

[Salty]

All of the historical documents show that, in essence, the closest thing we have today to the early Church is actually the Catholic Church. In these main points the Catholic Church is today what she has always been. Her leadership is unapologetically monarchical and hierarchical. Her teaching authority is centralized and universal, and the pope is what he has always been, the universal pastor of Christ’s Church, the steward of Christ’s kingdom and the Rock on which Christ builds his Church.

1) I wonder why the Bible never talks about a pope

 

[Walter]

1) I wonder why the Bible never talks about a pope

I wonder why the bible never mentions the 'Trinity', 'Incarnation', etc. Jesus, speaking Aramaic, renamed Simon Kepha, meaning “rock”. So what was said was “You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church.” In Aramaic, the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used in a man’s name. But when Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, he had to use the masculine for petros because you cannot call a man by a feminine term in that language. So, because Matthew wanted to call Peter a rock, he made the normal feminine word petra masculine (petros) to create a play on words. To bring out the word play, verse 18 might be translated this way” “You are Rocky, and on this rock I will build my church.”

 

[Salty]

I ,,, “You are Rocky, and on this rock I will build my church.”

lets put it this way -- You are rocky- and on this Rock.
ie - Peter = small rock.

 

[Walter]

lets put it this way -- You are rocky- and on this Rock.
ie - Peter = small rock.

As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Jesus, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant “rock.” If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used.

 

[Silverhair]

Yup, that's why you have a zillion different denominations all claiming that the Holy Spirit directed them in the development of their doctrines. Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic? Like is it limited atonement or unlimited atonement, Yeshua1?

The 'inclusive Methodist' use Isaiah 43:19 to show that the Holy Spirit is doing a 'New Thing' in the church in ordaining practicing homosexuals to the ministry.

"the church in ordaining practicing homosexuals to the ministry" that has been happening in RCC from the beginning and they continue to deny it.

 

[LaGrange]

"the church in ordaining practicing homosexuals to the ministry" that has been happening in RCC from the beginning and they continue to deny it.

Since the beginning? What time frame are you talking about? This is probably your prejudice against celibacy. You probably think men cannot control themselves with God’s grace for a higher cause. It that it? What about Paul?
(1 Cor 7:7-8).