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Unity or Purity?

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The problem is when the number of dissenting members grows large enough to overturn the church position.

The problem up here in the north is when nobody goes....kinda forces them to close their doors....lack of funds. Now the stats for Northern NJ.....less than 2 % attend weekly services. The population is transient & the taxes are high. You loose your job &/or retire and you cant live here on your savings. People move in but more have been moving out. They don't even care about dissension in the ranks .... most church goers are to dumb to even know what theology, sotorology, or what sound doctrine even is.... not endemic to their lives. Most are pissed off Catholics anyway. Halloween trick & treat & Easter Egg Hunts are big here & Churches that dont do it are looked on as strange. Show them a nice time, sing a few "God" songs & tell them Jesus loves them & they will write you a check.

That be what going on up here in the "Noth"....least New Joisey! :smilewinkgrin:
 
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MorseOp

New Member
The problem is when the number of dissenting members grows large enough to overturn the church position.

That is a risk. However if a church consistently teaches what it believes it's less likely to run into that problem. Also, a well informed membership, and elders who take their pastoral charge seriously, are a good defense.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is a risk. However if a church consistently teaches what it believes it's less likely to run into that problem. Also, a well informed membership, and elders who take their pastoral charge seriously, are a good defense.

Where do you find enough people who care enough to do that? Oh I forgot, your from the West.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
The problem up here in the north is when nobody goes....kinda forces them to close their doors....lack of funds. Now the stats for Northern NJ.....less than 2 % attend weekly services. The population is transient & the taxes are high. You loose your job &/or retire and you cant live here on your savings. People move in but more have been moving out. They don't even care about dissension in the ranks .... most church goers are to dumb to even know what theology, sotorology, or what sound doctrine even is.... not endemic to their lives. Most are pissed off Catholics anyway. Halloween trick & treat & Easter Egg Hunts are big here & Churches that dont do it are looked on as strange. Show them a nice time, sing a few "God" songs & tell them Jesus loves them & they will write you a check.

That be what going on up here in the "Noth"....least New Joisey! :smilewinkgrin:

Archie Bunker on New Jersey: "Somebody's gotta live there!" :laugh:
 

mont974x4

New Member
Why can't we have both?

Truth does not have to be divisive, and unity does not have to be inclusive.

If it were so, then God would have just stamped out a bunch of robots.

http://www.equip.org/articles/truth-in-religion-the-plurality-of-religions-and-the-unity-at-truth/

Because people are sinful. The Bible is clear that the Gospel, and the Cross, are stumbling blocks and cause division. Jesus Himself said this is why He came...

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Mat 10:36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Mat 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Archie Bunker on New Jersey: "Somebody's gotta live there!" :laugh:

Somebody did.....most of the Pharmaceutical Houses....Merck, Johnson & Johnson, Phizer , BASF, Sanofi-Adventis, Novartis, Mennen, Givadan

Then M&M / Mars, AT&T & Western Electric, Goldman-Sucks, Casio, Bear Stearns

Princeton Univ, Rutgers, Stevens Institute, UNDNJ
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

MorseOp

New Member
Where do you find enough people who care enough to do that? Oh I forgot, your from the West.

My own church. Our members are well informed. They are quite able to identify false teaching before it gets to the elders. I thank God that our elders have stood up, more than once, to falsehood and gave it the quick boot out the door. Our church is not unique in this. I know quite a few churches that are standing firm.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My own church. Our members are well informed. They are quite able to identify false teaching before it gets to the elders. I thank God that our elders have stood up, more than once, to falsehood and gave it the quick boot out the door. Our church is not unique in this. I know quite a few churches that are standing firm.

Up here Mo, I dont even see churches conducting bible study so good for you. When this Lutheran Pastor indicated the other day that they conduct study on Wednesday & Sunday, I was impressed. When he stated it was his responsibility to school interested people in learning more & more & more, then I was intrigued.

Now how do I interact with a guy who believes in Universal Atonement v Definite Atonement? How do I take communion with people who believe in Consubstantiation & how do I deal with their belief in sacraments (infant baptism)? Even now, Im grinding my teeth.

I have no recourse but to set myself apart from them & not get polluted with their ridiculous rituals while not offending them.

I thought about it all night & this morning and I concluded that I would seriously go to my death before I would become a false Christian & accept those rituals & that Universal Atonement that smells alot like Roman Catholicism. I AM SERIOUS. Now, what to do? Am I so desperate for fellowship that Id put myself in a position to worship with these people? I really dont know what to do at this juncture.
 

MorseOp

New Member
Up here Mo, I dont even see churches conducting bible study so good for you. When this Lutheran Pastor indicated the other day that they conduct study on Wednesday & Sunday, I was impressed. When he stated it was his responsibility to school interested people in learning more & more & more, then I was intrigued.

Now how do I interact with a guy who believes in Universal Atonement v Definite Atonement? How do I take communion with people who believe in Consubstantiation & how do I deal with their belief in sacraments (infant baptism)? Even now, Im grinding my teeth.

I have no recourse but to set myself apart from them & not get polluted with their ridiculous rituals while not offending them.

I thought about it all night & this morning and I concluded that I would seriously go to my death before I would become a false Christian & accept those rituals & that Universal Atonement that smells alot like Roman Catholicism. I AM SERIOUS. Now, what to do? Am I so desperate for fellowship that Id put myself in a position to worship with these people? I really dont know what to do at this juncture.

What area of the country do you live in?
 

12strings

Active Member
When somebody tells you Reformed Theology is absurd, & those who believe it are both misinformed & mean spirited, then what do you say?

I kindly say something like, "Well, it seems that the bible says God chose us, so I believe it...it also says I must choose God, so I believe that too...I'd love to talk more about it with you." I try very hard not to prove them right on the mean-spirited remark.
 

12strings

Active Member
Up here Mo, I dont even see churches conducting bible study so good for you. When this Lutheran Pastor indicated the other day that they conduct study on Wednesday & Sunday, I was impressed. When he stated it was his responsibility to school interested people in learning more & more & more, then I was intrigued.

Now how do I interact with a guy who believes in Universal Atonement v Definite Atonement? How do I take communion with people who believe in Consubstantiation & how do I deal with their belief in sacraments (infant baptism)? Even now, Im grinding my teeth.

I have no recourse but to set myself apart from them & not get polluted with their ridiculous rituals while not offending them.

I thought about it all night & this morning and I concluded that I would seriously go to my death before I would become a false Christian & accept those rituals & that Universal Atonement that smells alot like Roman Catholicism. I AM SERIOUS. Now, what to do? Am I so desperate for fellowship that Id put myself in a position to worship with these people? I really dont know what to do at this juncture.

I'll give a bit of what I hope is helpful advice, hopefully humbly, in that I know very little of your situation or the specifics of this church:

If the Church is (as it seems to be from your descriptions) is serious about belief in Christ, accept the bible as inspired, believe in Justification by grace, through faith, and if this is by far the best church around, and you believe it to be a true church, just one that differs significantly with you...Here's what I think I might do in your situation.

1. Learn as much as I can about lutheran beliefs and rituals and realize that they have reasons for them, even if all the people in the church don't know all the reasons. Also, realize that even baptists have some rituals that might seem odd to a completely unchurched person. I would not let rituals in themselves deter me.

2. Regarding universal atonement and consubstantion and infant baptism, I would be honest with the pastor about your disagreements, and ask if it would be okay if you began worshiping and fellowshiping with his church. Let them know you are unlikely to be pursuaded to thier opinions, but that you respect their earnest desire to study the bible and follow Christ, and desire fellowship with other believers who are similarly earnest in faith.

3. Agree with the pastor and leadership not to push your beliefs on members, but that you will be honest if people ask about your beliefs.

It may be that the church adopts you as their "resident baptist" in good humor, and you may all be stimulated to think more deeply about your convictions. Of course it may also be that the church doesn't want you around if you disagree...but you won't know that till you try.

I give this advice based on a deep belief that ALL Christians need community with other believers...even believers who disagree on some things...if they agree on the Gospel, and there are no other options...I would give it an honest try. You may never be allowed to become an official member of the church, but could gain the benefits of christian community that you are looking for.

Hope this helps and makes sense...I'm not saying compromise your beliefs...but maybe making a statement by your association with them that you believe that unity around the Gospel is valuable enough to associate with true Christians who disagree on some issues, even very important ones.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
I'll give a bit of what I hope is helpful advice, hopefully humbly, in that I know very little of your situation or the specifics of this church:

If the Church is (as it seems to be from your descriptions) is serious about belief in Christ, accept the bible as inspired, believe in Justification by grace, through faith, and if this is by far the best church around, and you believe it to be a true church, just one that differs significantly with you...Here's what I think I might do in your situation.

1. Learn as much as I can about lutheran beliefs and rituals and realize that they have reasons for them, even if all the people in the church don't know all the reasons. Also, realize that even baptists have some rituals that might seem odd to a completely unchurched person. I would not let rituals in themselves deter me.

2. Regarding universal atonement and consubstantion and infant baptism, I would be honest with the pastor about your disagreements, and ask if it would be okay if you began worshiping and fellowshiping with his church. Let them know you are unlikely to be pursuaded to thier opinions, but that you respect their earnest desire to study the bible and follow Christ, and desire fellowship with other believers who are similarly earnest in faith.

3. Agree with the pastor and leadership not to push your beliefs on members, but that you will be honest if people ask about your beliefs.

It may be that the church adopts you as their "resident baptist" in good humor, and you may all be stimulated to think more deeply about your convictions. Of course it may also be that the church doesn't want you around if you disagree...but you won't know that till you try.

I give this advice based on a deep belief that ALL Christians need community with other believers...even believers who disagree on some things...if they agree on the Gospel, and there are no other options...I would give it an honest try. You may never be allowed to become an official member of the church, but could gain the benefits of christian community that you are looking for.

Hope this helps and makes sense...I'm not saying compromise your beliefs...but maybe making a statement by your association with them that you believe that unity around the Gospel is valuable enough to associate with true Christians who disagree on some issues, even very important ones.

I think these are excellent suggestions!
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thanks but I'm fearful that strong resemblance to Roman Catholics will turn me off & I am really not interested in joining them so will look at this as an expariment. Maybe what I really need to do is get out of the area.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I kindly say something like, "Well, it seems that the bible says God chose us, so I believe it...it also says I must choose God, so I believe that too...I'd love to talk more about it with you." I try very hard not to prove them right on the mean-spirited remark.

But isn't their comment mean spirited and rude ..I certainly view it as an assault!
 
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