Universal Confession = Universal Salvation?

[Jacinth]

I thought I had, let me give it another try,

1. MISINTERPETATION

Anyone can say that someone is misinterpreting a verse, but it would be entirely unhelpful and unconducive to the discussion to leave it at that without offering anything by way of an explanation.

How exactly am I misinterpreting the verse?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,




So every tongue/knee is not a reference to everyone? Why do you say that?

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow
Should bow, does not mean they all will bow!

I'm not sure what you're saying here.



I fail to see how damnation is at odds with eventual salvation.

Because the same word that saves, also condemns!

Where do you see anything about condemnation in this passage? To the contrary, salvation is in view as I've already shown. Why, according to your reading, does Isaiah mention salvation and confession in the same breath?

Because He speaks of the word going out. The word as said before saves and also condems!


I agree, but how is any of this at odds with a final and universal confession?



Lost forever?

Yes...........unless he changes and becomes a doer!

This one scripture should put a end to your universal salvation.

Mat 7:13¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:



BBob

 

[Jacinth]

BrotherBob,

Yes...........unless he changes and becomes a doer!

I agreed.

This one scripture should put a end to your universal salvation.

Mat 7:13¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Indeed, many will be destroyed, but can there be a restoration from this destruction? The Bible seems to suggest that there can be:

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jacinth: Premise 1: All human beings who confess (Greek: homologeo) the Lordship of Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9).

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

Conclusion: Every human being will be saved.

Is there a flaw in these premises? Am I equivocating on the word "confess"?

HP: Either your ideas of premise one or premise two is flawed in light of what you have concluded. You seem to be assuming that the confession of premise one is the same as the confession of premise two. I for one believe that is a false assumption. Confession, in and of itself, will save no one. "Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

 

[Brother Bob]

BrotherBob,



I agreed.




Indeed, many will be destroyed, but can there be a restoration from this destruction? The Bible seems to suggest that there can be:

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We seem to be getting closer.....

BBob,

 

[Jacinth]

HP,

You seem to be assuming that the confession of premise one is the same as the confession of premise two. I for one believe that is a false assumption. Confession, in and of itself, will save no one. "Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Good post, HP.

It seems to me that the sort of confession in view in Philippians 2:11 has connotations of repentance, just as it does in Romans 10:9. For staters, the language of each verses is kindred:

“That if thou shalt confess (homologeo) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9

“And [that] every tongue should confess (exomologeo) that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:11

The confession in view in both texts involves acknowledging the Lordship of Christ. Moreover, we must keep in mind that one can only confess Christ if one is “speaking by the Spirit of God”:

“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” 1 Corinthians 12:3

Speaking by the Spirit of God is something that saved persons do, not unsaved persons.

 

[Jacinth]

Brother Bob,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We seem to be getting closer.....

Let's not just throw verses at one another. Let us discuss these verses. I'd appreciate your take on Colossians 1:20.

As for 2 Thessalonians 1:9, please tell me what you think this means exactly. For instance, is the text saying that the destruction consists in being away from the presence of the Lord, or is the text saying that the destruction originates in the the presence of the Lord? Also, how are you understanding the use of "everlasting" (aionios)? How is this word applied in this verse?

 

[TCGreek]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I present before you a simple syllogism, the conclusion of which neccessarily follows from the premises. My challenge to those who are so willing to accept it is to put forth a case for why either of the premises ought to be rejected.

Premise 1: All human beings who confess (Greek: homologeo) the Lordship of Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9).

1. This is a true statement.

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

2. This is not a true statement---Are the devil and his minions going to confess as well?

Phil 2:11 doesn't only include human beings.

Conclusion: Every human being will be saved.

Is there a flaw in these premises? Am I equivocating on the word "confess"?

I look forward to your responses.

In Christ,

J

3. Therefore your conclusion is incorrect and flawed.

 

[Jacinth]

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).


2. This is not a true statement---Are the devil and his minions going to confess as well?

Phil 2:11 doesn't only include human beings.

Are you suggesting that every knee/tongue does not include all human beings?

 

[TCGreek]

Are you suggesting that every knee/tongue does not include all human beings?

Are you a universalist?

 

[Jacinth]

I am a hopeful Universalist.

Are you suggesting that every knee/tongue does not include all human beings?

 

[Jacinth]

Brother Bob,

2 Thessalonians 1:9 strongly suggests that the Greek word apo is used to denote origin, as it does in v. 2: “Grace unto you, and peace, from (apo) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” That this is the case is evident from the fact that the destruction is explicitly said to come about via the fire of God (v.8). Thus, it stands to reason that the destruction is eternal by virtue of the fact that it orginates in the eternal God. This idea is articulated here:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

Eternal destruction and eternal punishment are eternal in that they are the kind of destruction and punishment that only God is fit to bring about.

 

[TCGreek]

I am a hopeful Universalist.

Are you suggesting that every knee/tongue does not include all human beings?

And even if every knee/tongue does include all human beings, it only be as an acknowledge of who Christ really is--the Lord of glory.

It would not be a confession unto salvation as in Romans 10:9, 10.

There is going to be an eternal Lake of fire not only for the devil and his fallen angels but for disobedient human beings (Rev 20:11-15).

So not all human beings are going to be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a hopeful Universalist.

Are you suggesting that every knee/tongue does not include all human beings?

In Matt 7 we are told that the WIDE road leads to destruction and MANY are on that road. That is contrasted to the NARROW road and we are told that only FEW are on that road.

Pretty hard to miss.

So that must be true AND it must be true that both the saved and the lost will one day admit to the truth of God's righteousness - as they stand around the Holy City in Rev 20 -- the wicked in judgment - the saints in the city of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jacinth]

And even if every knee/tongue does include all human beings, it only be as an acknowledge of who Christ really is--the Lord of glory.

It would not be a confession unto salvation as in Romans 10:9, 10.

This is an assertion, not an argument. As such, it fails completely to address the argument I have put forth as to why the sort of confession in view in Philippains 2:11 is the same as the sort in view in Romans 10:9.

There is going to be an eternal Lake of fire not only for the devil and his fallen angels but for disobedient human beings (Rev 20:11-15).

So not all human beings are going to be saved.

Perhaps the lake of fire is eternal because the fire is God Himself? If so, this wouldn't necessarily mean that those cast into the lake of fire will never be saved.

 

[Jacinth]

Bob Ryan, when is the time frame in view in Matthew 7? That few are on the road to life now does not mean that few will ever be.