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- Thread starter SolaScriptura in 2003
- Start date
Singer: If you don't belong to a church how do you "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Jesus) ?
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16</font>[/QUOTE]An excellant question, Katheryn!
Or can Singer claim to do this in the privacy of his own home, being his own pope, bishop, priest, celebrant, congregation and church?
No offence please, Singer, but is it not obvious in the New Testament that we are supposed to be a "Christian family"?
I don't mean just you, your wife and household but all of us who are Christians?
God bless,
PAX
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
Singer: If you don't belong to a church how do you "Do this in
remembrance of Me" (Jesus) ?
Rest assured I've done it Kathryn. It's not one of the Ten Commandments.
It's not a requirement to salvation. We were also told to "Go forth
and Multiply" but we are not breaking any laws if we don't have a new
child every 9 months or even have any at all. Even Bill P. quit with
seven.....me with three.
"Or can Singer claim to do this in the privacy of his own home, being
his own pope, bishop, priest, celebrant, congregation and church?"
Can I opt out of possessing any of the above ? "Forsake not the gathering
of yourselves together" is not a direct command to "Make Mass every
Sunday or go to Hell". Actually I'm very much looking forward to our
Gospel Music Jam on Sunday that will last all day in the fellowship of
Christians from all faiths (Organized by a Catholic, emceed
by a Lutheran and shared by Methodists, Wesleyans and Baptists
to name a few. And me
" No offence please, Singer, but is it not obvious in the New
Testament that we are supposed to be a "Christian family"?
Supposed to is right. But, that which is perfect is not come yet !!
Besides, some of us would not accept our "family status" if there
were some of those dreaded hardline Protestants involved unless
they were converted now would we ?
We are all one as far as the basic requirements of "belief" are involved.
We believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, believe that
God sent his Son to be our replacement in death for those who believe
upon Him. (And that's where everything starts getting gray)
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood
of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of
Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
No, it's an act done in remembrance of Him for true believers.
We, all of us who are the "Body of Christ" is not to say that we are
the Eucharist, which is nonsense.
That's where Catholics do not all agree, evidently. Carson says the
Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. You make it sound like
(all of us) including Protestants are members of some invisible
church or a generic and universal body of believers. Catholics
aren't supposed to think that way. That goes against your Catechism
that teaches the Catholic Church is the visible church on earth. So my
answer is ....No, I am not a member of THAT Body of Christ.
As for the sarcastic nonsense that I offered and you recognized it as such....................
You're right, the Eucharist is not the Body of Christ.....whether a visible or
invisible church. The Eucharist is also not the Body of Christ in actuality
either. There aren't any priests who have the power to do such; nor
was the power given to the apostles.
But the "Body of Christ" as in the Eucharist is that food that
feeds those who are part of the "body of christ."
I understand what you're saying, but I don't look upon the emblems
as food and there may not be any spiritual gain in wisdom or understanding
by partaking . Your personal translation of "body of christ" (believers)
is very different from other Catholics.
Singer
remembrance of Me" (Jesus) ?
Rest assured I've done it Kathryn. It's not one of the Ten Commandments.
It's not a requirement to salvation. We were also told to "Go forth
and Multiply" but we are not breaking any laws if we don't have a new
child every 9 months or even have any at all. Even Bill P. quit with
seven.....me with three.
"Or can Singer claim to do this in the privacy of his own home, being
his own pope, bishop, priest, celebrant, congregation and church?"
Can I opt out of possessing any of the above ? "Forsake not the gathering
of yourselves together" is not a direct command to "Make Mass every
Sunday or go to Hell". Actually I'm very much looking forward to our
Gospel Music Jam on Sunday that will last all day in the fellowship of
Christians from all faiths (Organized by a Catholic, emceed
by a Lutheran and shared by Methodists, Wesleyans and Baptists
to name a few. And me
" No offence please, Singer, but is it not obvious in the New
Testament that we are supposed to be a "Christian family"?
Supposed to is right. But, that which is perfect is not come yet !!
Besides, some of us would not accept our "family status" if there
were some of those dreaded hardline Protestants involved unless
they were converted now would we ?
We are all one as far as the basic requirements of "belief" are involved.
We believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, believe that
God sent his Son to be our replacement in death for those who believe
upon Him. (And that's where everything starts getting gray)
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood
of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of
Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
No, it's an act done in remembrance of Him for true believers.
We, all of us who are the "Body of Christ" is not to say that we are
the Eucharist, which is nonsense.
That's where Catholics do not all agree, evidently. Carson says the
Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. You make it sound like
(all of us) including Protestants are members of some invisible
church or a generic and universal body of believers. Catholics
aren't supposed to think that way. That goes against your Catechism
that teaches the Catholic Church is the visible church on earth. So my
answer is ....No, I am not a member of THAT Body of Christ.
As for the sarcastic nonsense that I offered and you recognized it as such....................
You're right, the Eucharist is not the Body of Christ.....whether a visible or
invisible church. The Eucharist is also not the Body of Christ in actuality
either. There aren't any priests who have the power to do such; nor
was the power given to the apostles.
But the "Body of Christ" as in the Eucharist is that food that
feeds those who are part of the "body of christ."
I understand what you're saying, but I don't look upon the emblems
as food and there may not be any spiritual gain in wisdom or understanding
by partaking . Your personal translation of "body of christ" (believers)
is very different from other Catholics.
Singer
Because, Kathryn, out of the very same book of the Bible, one chapter later, we find this:
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
Singer replied to Kathryn, when she said:
Singer: If you don't belong to a church how do you "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Jesus)?
Now, it does not absolutely say that you will not be saved, or that you will loose your salvation if you do not do what this verse says, but it sure does come close.
And I last said:
"Or can Singer claim to do this in the privacy of his own home, being
his own pope, bishop, priest, celebrant, congregation and church?"
Do you avoid communion entirely? Do you even go to a church gathering on Sunday? What do you do on Sunday (or Saturday if you prefer?)
" No offence please, Singer, but is it not obvious in the New Testament that we are supposed to be a "Christian family"?
Christ established a Church, right, Singer?
Now, for being the professed Christian you are supposed to be, why do you stand outside of her? "What Church," you may ask? Have you really looked for her? Or if on sight of the slightest imperfection you see in her human members, be they layperson, priest, bishop or even pope, you remain on the outskirts?
And while I am speaking of being "imperfect," what say ye on John 20:22-23?
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood
of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of
Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
Actually, there is nothing really wrong with your statement; it really does not stand in opposition with what Paul is saying. And I will be dying to see your definition of a "true believer."
I last said:
We, all of us who are the "Body of Christ" is not to say that we are
the Eucharist, which is nonsense.
Quote...................
WHO BELONGS TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God...And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation." (references to quoted material are not included here. WMP)
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways yo the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that wuld permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." (Italization in the original.)
Unquote...............
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church, page 222 of the paperback second edition.
Come, Holy Spirit...............
But the "Body of Christ" as in the Eucharist is that food that
feeds those who are part of the "body of christ."
"For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink." (John 6:55)
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Singer: If you don't belong to a church how do you "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Jesus)?
No, but it is one of the commandments of Christ I have been speaking of, rigt, Singer?
"...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." (John 6:53 Catholic NAB)
Now, it does not absolutely say that you will not be saved, or that you will loose your salvation if you do not do what this verse says, but it sure does come close.
And I last said:
"Or can Singer claim to do this in the privacy of his own home, being
his own pope, bishop, priest, celebrant, congregation and church?"
Why is it that you will get together with others in song fest, yet forsake the formal gathering that Christ wants us to do, including the "breaking of bread" in communion with Him?Can I opt out of possessing any of the above ? "Forsake not the gathering
of yourselves together" is not a direct command to "Make Mass every Sunday or go to Hell". Actually I'm very much looking forward to our
Gospel Music Jam on Sunday that will last all day in the fellowship of Christians from all faiths (Organized by a Catholic, emceed by a Lutheran and shared by Methodists, Wesleyans and Baptists to name a few. And me
Do you avoid communion entirely? Do you even go to a church gathering on Sunday? What do you do on Sunday (or Saturday if you prefer?)
" No offence please, Singer, but is it not obvious in the New Testament that we are supposed to be a "Christian family"?
This harks back to your being an "at large" Christian that has an imperfect tie with the Church I spoke of in another thread.Supposed to is right. But, that which is perfect is not come yet !!
Besides, some of us would not accept our "family status" if there
were some of those dreaded hardline Protestants involved unless
they were converted now would we ?
We are all one as far as the basic requirements of "belief" are involved.
We believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, believe that
God sent his Son to be our replacement in death for those who believe
upon Him. (And that's where everything starts getting gray)
Christ established a Church, right, Singer?
Now, for being the professed Christian you are supposed to be, why do you stand outside of her? "What Church," you may ask? Have you really looked for her? Or if on sight of the slightest imperfection you see in her human members, be they layperson, priest, bishop or even pope, you remain on the outskirts?
And while I am speaking of being "imperfect," what say ye on John 20:22-23?
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood
of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of
Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
You disagree with scripture? Or do you dismiss the authority of 1 Corinthians as being a valid and authentic Word of God in scripture, as declared by an "authority" you will not acknowledge?
Actually, there is nothing really wrong with your statement; it really does not stand in opposition with what Paul is saying. And I will be dying to see your definition of a "true believer."
I last said:
We, all of us who are the "Body of Christ" is not to say that we are
the Eucharist, which is nonsense.
For your reading enjoyment:
Quote...................
WHO BELONGS TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God...And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation." (references to quoted material are not included here. WMP)
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways yo the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that wuld permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." (Italization in the original.)
Unquote...............
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church, page 222 of the paperback second edition.
That is your choice and conviction. Note that in all charity, Holy Mother Church would include you, albeit in an imperfect way per the quote above.
One of these days...........it will hit you like a bolt from on high, like it did when it struck Saul to the ground off of his horse!
Come, Holy Spirit...............
But the "Body of Christ" as in the Eucharist is that food that
feeds those who are part of the "body of christ."
You don't look upon "them" as food?
"For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink." (John 6:55)
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Singer,You wrote Bill:
Here is some passages from the Catechism.
805. "The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, CHRIST, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community OF believers as his own BODY. "
790. "Believers who respond to God's word and become members OF CHRIST's BODY, become intimately united with him: 'In that BODY the life OF CHRIST is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to CHRIST in his Passion and glorification.'[LG 7.] This is especially true OF Baptism, which unites us to CHRIST's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which 'really sharing in the BODY OF the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another.'[LG 7; cf. Rom 6:4-5 ; 1 Cor 12:13 .]"
791. "The BODY's unity does not do away with the diversity OF its members: 'In the building up OF CHRIST's BODY there is engaged a diversity OF members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs OF the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare OF the Church.'[LG 7 # 3.] The unity OF the Mystical BODY produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: 'From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.'[LG 7 # 3; cf. 1 Cor 12:26 .] Finally, the unity OF the Mystical BODY triumphs over all human divisions: 'For as many OF you as were baptized into CHRIST have put on CHRIST. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in CHRIST Jesus.'[Gal 3:27-28 .]"
God Bless
Bill and I and all the Catholics I am aware of on this site agree on the Catholic understanding of the Body of Christ.
Here is some passages from the Catechism.
805. "The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, CHRIST, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community OF believers as his own BODY. "
790. "Believers who respond to God's word and become members OF CHRIST's BODY, become intimately united with him: 'In that BODY the life OF CHRIST is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to CHRIST in his Passion and glorification.'[LG 7.] This is especially true OF Baptism, which unites us to CHRIST's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which 'really sharing in the BODY OF the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another.'[LG 7; cf. Rom 6:4-5 ; 1 Cor 12:13 .]"
791. "The BODY's unity does not do away with the diversity OF its members: 'In the building up OF CHRIST's BODY there is engaged a diversity OF members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs OF the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare OF the Church.'[LG 7 # 3.] The unity OF the Mystical BODY produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: 'From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.'[LG 7 # 3; cf. 1 Cor 12:26 .] Finally, the unity OF the Mystical BODY triumphs over all human divisions: 'For as many OF you as were baptized into CHRIST have put on CHRIST. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in CHRIST Jesus.'[Gal 3:27-28 .]"
God Bless
Bill and I and all the Catholics I am aware of on this site agree on the Catholic understanding of the Body of Christ.
Here is some passages from the Catechism.
805. "The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, CHRIST, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community OF believers as his own BODY. "
790. "Believers who respond to God's word and become members OF CHRIST's BODY, become intimately united with him: 'In that BODY the life OF CHRIST is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to CHRIST in his Passion and glorification.'[LG 7.] This is especially true OF Baptism, which unites us to CHRIST's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which 'really sharing in the BODY OF the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another.'[LG 7; cf. Rom 6:4-5 ; 1 Cor 12:13 .]"
791. "The BODY's unity does not do away with the diversity OF its members: 'In the building up OF CHRIST's BODY there is engaged a diversity OF members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs OF the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare OF the Church.'[LG 7 # 3.] The unity OF the Mystical BODY produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: 'From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.'[LG 7 # 3; cf. 1 Cor 12:26 .] Finally, the unity OF the Mystical BODY triumphs over all human divisions: 'For as many OF you as were baptized into CHRIST have put on CHRIST. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in CHRIST Jesus.'[Gal 3:27-28 .]"
God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]For the benefit of Singer, I thought I would provide him with a good search engine for investigating that it is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html
I also recommend that Singer get the printed copy of the second edition, available at all good Bible book stores.
Good work, Kathy!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep
and watch over those
you have gathered.
Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.
You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.