Universalism a strawman argument.

[AustinC]

Yet Universalism and General Redemption is completely unrelated (one views all men as ultimately being saved while the other as Christ being the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world).

Here you show the relationship. Both have Christ as being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. The difference is that the General Redemption proponent denies the power of Christ's payment and declares that the will of man overrides the payment of Christ. They actually cheapen Christ's atoning work worse than Universalists.

 

[Silverhair]

Only in your mind, not in scripture. In scripture God particularly redeems each person He has chosen from before the foundation of the world.
You desire an unspecific God who ransomed every sinner, from Adam onward, yet couldn't save all of them, despite purchasing them all out of slavery. You put the power of redemption in the hands of men and remove it from God. Such a philosophy of redemption is incompatible with God's word which shows us a God who has very specific plans that He always accomplishes without fail. Your redemption is precisely because God chose you and redeemed you.

Now if your theory were only true Austin then perhaps you could actually justify your zeal. To bad the bible does not support your view but you won't let that stop you.

How many times must you be show the truths in the bible before you will actually believe them?

 

[Silverhair]

Definitive? You cannot even define what General Redemption is. You have never clearly defined it in all the posts you have made.
Instead, you teach Universal Atonement, that Jesus ransomed all humanity, having paid for all sins. Then, you deny that Jesus payment was enough. Instead, you declare that human choice is the key to whether or not Jesus payment was enough. It is the human that decides his own fate by accepting the payment or rejecting it. You ignore scripture when you read "But God..." You, instead, insist on "but man..."
There is no general redemption taught anywhere in scripture. The redemption is particular. There is, however, a general call to all humanity to be reconciled with God. God uses the call of His children to speak individually to the people in this world whom He elected to save before the foundation of the world. God is not willing that any of His children should perish. Those whom God has chosen will believe because God will save them by grace and seat them in the heavenlies with Christ (Ephesians 2). God has written them into His will (New Covenant) as inheritors of His grace (Hebrews 9). This is all biblical truth. Why do you run toward a man-centered gospel?

BUT GOD
forgive sins but God alone Mar 2:7, Luk 5:21
but God knows your hearts Luk 16:15
spoke in this way Act 7:6
With Joseph Act 7:9
not call any man common or unclean Act 10:28
Raised Christ from the dead Act 13:30
demonstrates His own love toward us Rom_5:8
be thanked Rom_6:17
has chosen the foolish things of the world 1Co_1:27
has revealed them to us through His Spirit 1Co_2:10
gave the increase 1Co_3:6
who gives the increase 1Co_3:7
stomach & food will destroy both it and them 1Co_6:13
has called us to peace 1Co_7:15
is faithful 1Co_10:13
composed the body 1Co_12:24
gives it a body as He pleases 1Co_15:38
gave it to Abraham by promise Gal_3:18
is one Gal_3:20
forbid that I should boast except in the cross Gal_6:14
who is rich in mercy Eph_2:4
had mercy on him Php_2:27
who tests our hearts 1Th_2:4
who has also given us His Holy Spirit 1Th_4:8

So which of these are you referring to when you quote "But God"

 

[37818]

Do you imagine that God cannot save if a person cannot reason his own salvation out and choose God?
Honestly, do you throw God causing you to believe into the trash bin and only consider that you caused God to save you by your intellectual capacity to reason?
Come on, is it not God's gracious gift of faith that causes you to believe or is it your capacity to reason that causes you to believe. Let's get down to the very core of what is bothering you.

There are extra Biblical issues with your understanding what you are persuaded to be Biblical.

It was in 1962 I was persuaded to receive Christ as Savior on the notion of knowing for sure. With your view of Christ's uncertain payment for one's sins renders that not to be knowable.

You keep thinking there had to be an intellectual reason for me to believe. There was none.

 

[AustinC]

There are extra Biblical issues with your understanding what you are persuaded to be Biblical.

It was in 1962 I was persuaded to receive Christ as Savior on the notion of knowing for sure. With your view of Christ's uncertain payment for one's sins renders that not to be knowable.

You have repeatedly made this false claim despite having more than just myself show you your error.
There is no uncertainty of Christ's payment on my behalf. Why? Because upon saving me, God gave me faith to believe that He ransomed me.

If God has ransomed all humanity, there would be no need for faith. You would be ransomed by God and that would be that. Your persuasion would be merely an intellectual assent to your ransom without ever having any concern for repentance. Your security would be sure regardless of any persuasion at all since regardless of any action, your ransom is fully paid and no sin can be laid against you. Before God you would be holy regardless of persuasion or no persuasion. Your universal atonement would make you right with God.

Take your General Redemption to its conclusion, 37, and you find yourself in universalism.

 

[Silverhair]

You have repeatedly made this false claim despite having more than just myself show you your error.
There is no uncertainty of Christ's payment on my behalf. Why? Because upon saving me, God gave me faith to believe that He ransomed me.

If God has ransomed all humanity, there would be no need for faith. You would be ransomed by God and that would be that. Your persuasion would be merely an intellectual assent to your ransom without ever having any concern for repentance. Your security would be sure regardless of any persuasion at all since regardless of any action, your ransom is fully paid and no sin can be laid against you. Before God you would be holy regardless of persuasion or no persuasion. Your universal atonement would make you right with God.

Take your General Redemption to its conclusion, 37, and you find yourself in universalism.

Austin your theology is built on sand. You have to hope that the faith you say you have is actually real. As you said it is not you that has faith is it, Your authority is calvinism, not the bible.

Question, why did He save you? Were you better, smarter or did you just win the lottery?

 

[atpollard]

Universalism is a lie used against the Biblical general redemption. The word of God does not teach universalism, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:7-8.

The Bible may not teach Universalism and ‘orthodox’ General Baptists may not teach Universalism … however, there are “Christian Forums” where UNIVERSALISM is alive and well and may even be the majority view (… because GOD IS LOVE, darn it! and hell is just plain mean.)

 

[Silverhair]

Do you imagine that God cannot save if a person cannot reason his own salvation out and choose God?
Honestly, do you throw God causing you to believe into the trash bin and only consider that you caused God to save you by your intellectual capacity to reason?
Come on, is it not God's gracious gift of faith that causes you to believe or is it your capacity to reason that causes you to believe. Let's get down to the very core of what is bothering you.

Austin do you think God is not capable of giving man the ability to reason? The ability to trust the gospel message that they have heard? God could cause man to believe and He can also give man the ability to reason for himself. God does not have to give man faith so as to believe, that is just something that your theological view requires. From what we see in the bible God expects man to make choices based upon evidence available to them and will hold them responsible for their choices.

The presentation of the gospel message is compelling evidence for the position that man can reason and decide to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation.

So actually what we need to do is get down to the core of what makes you deny what the bible clearly shows. Man will be held responsible for rejecting or accepting the gospel message.

 

[Silverhair]

The Bible may not teach Universalism and ‘orthodox’ General Baptists may not teach Universalism … however, there are “Christian Forums” where UNIVERSALISM is alive and well and may even be the majority view (… because GOD IS LOVE, darn it! and hell is just plain mean.)

And those people need to be confronted and refuted.

 

[JonC]

Here you show the relationship. Both have Christ as being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. The difference is that the General Redemption proponent denies the power of Christ's payment and declares that the will of man overrides the payment of Christ. They actually cheapen Christ's atoning work worse than Universalists.

Christ as the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world is something they have in common.

They also have the idea that Christ is God in common.

Where you make a mistake is equating Christ as the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world to Universalism.

The reason for your error is you place their doctrines within your own theology (it is not an honest treatment of the views, but an argument against a fictional idea).

The charge of "universalism" is a strawman argument much too often tossed against those who believe in a general atonement by those who don't and are too blind to understand anything outside of their positions.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have and you cannot be that stupid.
Luke 22:20-21, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, etc.

That means you deny that Christs death alone saved them He died for, thats unbelief !

 

[37818]

. . . show you your error.

What error? You deny the essential redemption, being for every man, Hebrews 2:9, ". . . that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. . . ." And by doing so demonstrates a lack of understanding the new birth, Mark 10:14-15. Nicodemus in his misunderstanding understood it better, by his question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ." Furthermore names either blotted out of not blotted out, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ." Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ." The general redemption is the reason names start out in the book!

 

[AustinC]

What error? You deny the essential redemption, being for every man, Hebrews 2:9, ". . . that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. . . ." And by doing so demonstrates a lack of understanding the new birth, Mark 10:14-15. Nicodemus in his misunderstanding understood it better, by his question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ."

Perhaps if you read the context, you would see what the preacher to the Hebrews is saying.

*Hebrews 2:9-13*

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Note the the "everyone" in verse 9 is clarified in 10-13 so we see that it is everyone the Father has given to Jesus.

*Mark 10:13-16*
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

In Mark 10 we don't see the process of salvation. There is no General Redemption taught here. You still have to deal with "But God..."

*John 3:1-19*
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Just as you did not cause your physical birth, so you did not cause your spiritual birth. Like Nicodemus, you are struggling with this truth.

 

[37818]

The Bible may not teach Universalism and ‘orthodox’ General Baptists may not teach Universalism … however, there are “Christian Forums” where UNIVERSALISM is alive and well and may even be the majority view (… because GOD IS LOVE, darn it! and hell is just plain mean.)

With universalism it doesn't matter what one believes in the end. So when it comes to the gospel, with universalism the gospel is really denied. Mark 16:15, Colossians 1:23.

 

[37818]

Perhaps if you read the context, you would see what the preacher to the Hebrews is saying.

*Hebrews 2:9-13*

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Note the the "everyone" in verse 9 is clarified in 10-13 so we see that it is everyone the Father has given to Jesus.

*Mark 10:13-16*
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

In Mark 10 we don't see the process of salvation. There is no General Redemption taught here. You still have to deal with "But God..."

*John 3:1-19*
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Just as you did not cause your physical birth, so you did not cause your spiritual birth. Like Nicodemus, you are struggling with this truth.

You really do not believe, that is to actually understand Mark 10:14-15.

 

[37818]

What error? You deny the essential redemption, being for every man, Hebrews 2:9, ". . . that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. . . ." And by doing so demonstrates a lack of understanding the new birth, Mark 10:14-15. Nicodemus in his misunderstanding understood it better, by his question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ." Furthermore names either blotted out of not blotted out, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ." Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ." The general redemption is the reason names start out in the book!

 

[AustinC]

You really do not believe, that is to actually understand Mark 10:14-15.

I provided all that scripture and proof in post #33 and all you can respond with is the above post? 37,you are in denial.

 

[37818]

I provided all that scripture and proof in post #33 and all you can respond with is the above post? 37,you are in denial.

Perhaps if you read the context, you would see what the preacher to the Hebrews is saying.

*Hebrews 2:9-13*

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Note the the "everyone" in verse 9 is clarified in 10-13 so we see that it is everyone the Father has given to Jesus.

*Mark 10:13-16*
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

In Mark 10 we don't see the process of salvation. There is no General Redemption taught here. You still have to deal with "But God..."

*John 3:1-19*
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Just as you did not cause your physical birth, so you did not cause your spiritual birth. Like Nicodemus, you are struggling with this truth.

Denial of what? The denial of the denial of the truth of the general redemption, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2. You truly do not understand Revelation 3:5 or Mark 10:14-15 having to do with John 3:3-4.

 

[Baptist Believer]

They deny everlasting is really everlasting, Matthew 25:41.

The fire is what is described as everlasting. It has nothing to do with the disposition of those in the fire.

 

[37818]

The fire is what is described as everlasting. It has nothing to do with the disposition of those in the fire.

Not according to verse 46, ". . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . ."
Verse 41, αιωνιον. Verse 46, αιωνιον.