Universalism a strawman argument.

[AVL1984]

This is a cop out on your part.
You and I were without hope, a slave to sin. We could not free ourselves from our bondage. God had to break in and set us free by his gracious choice to do so.
God is the cause. Our response in faith and belief is the effect of God breaking our chains and freeing us from our bondage. This is the gospel that God so loved you that he sent his son to you so that you would believe he has set you free.

Now, as for myself, I am confident of the gospel, that it is all God who has redeemed us and not our wise choice. I cannot compromise on the gospel. That can cause some to call me arrogant. And, there is no doubt that pride is lurking at my door as it is with everyone. CS Lewis rightly called pride "the Great Sin." I can receive that claim and bring it to God for forgiveness.

I don't see anyone denying that God is the reason we are saved. So, let me see.."God HAD to break in?" Yes, God had to be the provider, but, in Calvinism the double speak....God caused (forced) them to come running to himself (irresistable grace...really? Then why do so many reject Christ?) while others aren't given that light in spite of the Gospel being presented. Guess that John 3:16...for God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son...Guess he didn't love the whole world, right? Just the elect...Also I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Guess the Bible is a lie, right? God would be a liar then, right? Calvinism is full of contradictions.

 

[AVL1984]

Simple. Read the letter.
*1 John 5:1-12*

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Now connect it to John 3:3-15.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Do you see the fact that God must cause you to be born again before you can believe?

Paul says the same thing.
*Ephesians 2:1-9*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And yet, EVERYTHING you've highlited, and the Scripture you post are the same verses those who hold to FREE WILL use as well. Guess that your emphasis here is sort of fruitless in proving your point....AGAIN! We all agree that we need to be made alive....I guess it boils down to just WHEN this being made alive occurs. I don't believe any of us is going to lose our salvation if we don't agree with YOUR TAKE on these Scriptures. Right?

 

[AustinC]

And yet, EVERYTHING you've highlited, and the Scripture you post are the same verses those who hold to FREE WILL use as well. Guess that your emphasis here is sort of fruitless in proving your point....AGAIN! We all agree that we need to be made alive....I guess it boils down to just WHEN this being made alive occurs. I don't believe any of us is going to lose our salvation if we don't agree with YOUR TAKE on these Scriptures. Right?

Well...Satan quotes verses as well so the responsibility for us is to discern what God is saying.
Can a person, dead in sins and not born again by God, believe?

My answer is a definitive NO.

 

[AustinC]

I don't see anyone denying that God is the reason we are saved. So, let me see.."God HAD to break in?" Yes, God had to be the provider, but, in Calvinism the double speak....God caused (forced) them to come running to himself (irresistable grace...really? Then why do so many reject Christ?) while others aren't given that light in spite of the Gospel being presented. Guess that John 3:16...for God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son...Guess he didn't love the whole world, right? Just the elect...Also I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Guess the Bible is a lie, right? God would be a liar then, right? Calvinism is full of contradictions.

We couldn't come running to God. We were shackled to sin, in slavery. God doesn't force us to run to Him, because we couldn't move. God had to break into our dungeon and unshackle us and set us free before we could run anywhere.
It seems to me that you don't actually perceive the wretched predicament you were in before God saved you.

 

[AVL1984]

Well...Satan quotes verses as well so the responsibility for us is to discern what God is saying.
Can a person, dead in sins and not born again by God, believe?

My answer is a definitive NO.

It depends on when you believe a person is "born again." Calvinists believe that people are born again before a person receives Christ. Most don't believe that way, and Calvinists have to do a lot of gymnastics with Scripture to come to that conclusion. Dead in sin doesn't mean unable to receive..dead in sin doesn't mean unable to decide...Calvinists have to do a lot of gymnastics to come to the conclusions they do..

 

[AVL1984]

We couldn't come running to God. We were shackled to sin, in slavery. God doesn't force us to run to Him, because we couldn't move. God had to break into our dungeon and unshackle us and set us free before we could run anywhere.
It seems to me that you don't actually perceive the wretched predicament you were in before God saved you.

Man's ideology added to God's word...go figure. It seems to me that you assume a lot about people though you don't know them. Arrogance is definitely in your DNA...

 

[AustinC]

Man's ideology added to God's word...go figure. It seems to me that you assume a lot about people though you don't know them. Arrogance is definitely in your DNA...

What ideology did I add to us being slaves to sin?
Do you imagine you ran to God while you were shackled in sin?

 

[AustinC]

It depends on when you believe a person is "born again." Calvinists believe that people are born again before a person receives Christ. Most don't believe that way, and Calvinists have to do a lot of gymnastics with Scripture to come to that conclusion. Dead in sin doesn't mean unable to receive..dead in sin doesn't mean unable to decide...Calvinists have to do a lot of gymnastics to come to the conclusions they do..

Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us when.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us when.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

You leave out some critical verses Austin
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Note Paul is including himself in the ones that were dead in trespasses and sins and these dead people could actually walk and think or do you not believe that Paul was able to do those things.

Austin as you keep saying look at the context not just what you think will support your view.
Why do you think that a bible believer would have problems with the verses that you posted. Note the last few words of your post "by grace you have been saved". If you look just a few verse down you will see why " For by grace you have been saved through faith"

Looks like those dead in sin people weren't so dead after all.

 

[AVL1984]

What ideology did I add to us being slaves to sin?
Do you imagine you ran to God while you were shackled in sin?

Your example is ludicrous. Not all slaves are "shackled." The imagery you're using is YOUR opinion. Not all slaves are "shackled." And you seem to continuously ignore the fact that God gave people a CHOICE in the Bible...Calvinists don't like that, nor are they ones to admit it. Your reasoning is circular at best.

 

[AustinC]

Your example is ludicrous. Not all slaves are "shackled." The imagery you're using is YOUR opinion. Not all slaves are "shackled." And you seem to continuously ignore the fact that God gave people a CHOICE in the Bible...Calvinists don't like that, nor are they ones to admit it. Your reasoning is circular at best.

You were a slave to sin. Think of yourself as being on a slave ship. You had no hope of escape. You could not choose anything regarding your freedom.
It seems you don't want to admit how desperately wretched your condition was when God broke in and pulled you out. You still want to imagine you were dancing in the periwinkle when you chose Jesus as you saw him at a distance. But that's not how the Bible describes your condition. You were a slave to sin. You were dead in trespasses and sins. You were wretched.

Here is the poem of one who understood.
Amazing grace! how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch; like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see

 

[AVL1984]

You were a slave to sin. Think of yourself as being on a slave ship. You had no hope of escape. You could not choose anything regarding your freedom.

I really have much better things to do than keep going round and round with you about things that I've already commented on. As is typical of Calvinists, you seem to feel the need to overrun anyone who disagrees with your analogies, stories, comparisons, etc. I believe "Redeeming the time because the days are evil," is a much better use of my time and resources.

It seems you don't want to admit how desperately wretched your condition was when God broke in and pulled you out. You still want to imagine you were dancing in the periwinkle when you chose Jesus as you saw him at a distance.

Again, that's your view of what I saw, which you know nothing of. Your insinuations are lidicrous at best, and inflammatory. I nowhere thought that I was "good" or "worthy of salvation" when I came to Christ, and Calvinists continued lies about how people viewed themselves is one reason many reject "reformed" (again, why in the world would it need to be informed when the necessity of coming to the Lord for salvation is so clear?) soteriology/theology.

But that's not how the Bible describes your condition.

MY condition? Weren't you in the same condition. Presentation is another reason people reject "reformed" theology/soteriology. Calvinists always refer to "your condition" instead of "OUR condition." Guess that has escaped you as well, right Austin?

You were a slave to sin. You were dead in trespasses and sins. You were wretched.

So were YOU. Look in the mirror an learn to humble yourself, "brother."

Here is the poem of one who understood.
Amazing grace! how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch; like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see

Yes, one of my favorite hymns...still it doesn't say "just for the 'elect.'" Go figure.

 

[AustinC]

You were a slave to sin. Think of yourself as being on a slave ship. You had no hope of escape. You could not choose anything regarding your freedom.

I really have much better things to do than keep going round and round with you about things that I've already commented on. As is typical of Calvinists, you seem to feel the need to overrun anyone who disagrees with your analogies, stories, comparisons, etc. I believe "Redeeming the time because the days are evil," is a much better use of my time and resources.

It seems you don't want to admit how desperately wretched your condition was when God broke in and pulled you out. You still want to imagine you were dancing in the periwinkle when you chose Jesus as you saw him at a distance.

Again, that's your view of what I saw, which you know nothing of. Your insinuations are lidicrous at best, and inflammatory. I nowhere thought that I was "good" or "worthy of salvation" when I came to Christ, and Calvinists continued lies about how people viewed themselves is one reason many reject "reformed" (again, why in the world would it need to be informed when the necessity of coming to the Lord for salvation is so clear?) soteriology/theology.

But that's not how the Bible describes your condition.

MY condition? Weren't you in the same condition. Presentation is another reason people reject "reformed" theology/soteriology. Calvinists always refer to "your condition" instead of "OUR condition." Guess that has escaped you as well, right Austin?

You were a slave to sin. You were dead in trespasses and sins. You were wretched.

So were YOU. Look in the mirror an learn to humble yourself, "brother."

I am very well aware that I was onboard that same slave ship, bound in chains, and unable to choose anything. I was in need of a Savior who could ransom me and loose my chains. I know how wretched I am and how my salvation is entirely and only by God's grace alone.

It seems you refuse to admit how desperate your situation is and how desperately you needed Jesus to intercede on your behalf. I am very well aware of my vile position and I openly admit that I did nothing to secure my freedom.
You accuse me of being proud when I honestly tell you that you were in the same condition and you still (like me) are entirely dependent upon Jesus interceding for you as your High Priest. Without Jesus intercession, you would still be in shackles on that slave boat. If you deny that, then you make God a liar.

 

[AVL1984]

I am very well aware that I was onboard that same slave ship, bound in chains, and unable to choose anything. I was in need of a Savior who could ransom me and loose my chains. I know how wretched I am and how my salvation is entirely and only by God's grace alone.

It seems you refuse to admit how desperate your situation is and how desperately you needed Jesus to intercede on your behalf. I am very well aware of my vile position and I openly admit that I did nothing to secure my freedom.
You accuse me of being proud when I honestly tell you that you were in the same condition and you still (like me) are entirely dependent upon Jesus interceding for you as your High Priest. Without Jesus intercession, you would still be in shackles on that slave boat. If you deny that, then you make God a liar.

Again with the false accusations of what I do or do not believe? You're not worth wasting my time with any longer. The only people making God a liar is you. Thanks for continuing to prove people assertions of Calvinists and their arrogance. You may continue to reply to me, and I KNOW you will because you can't help yourself, but unlike others here, I have had enough of your false accusations, assumptions, and the like. Talk to the wind.

 

[AustinC]

Again with the false accusations of what I do or do not believe? You're not worth wasting my time with any longer. The only people making God a liar is you. Thanks for continuing to prove people assertions of Calvinists and their arrogance. You may continue to reply to me, and I KNOW you will because you can't help yourself, but unlike others here, I have had enough of your false accusations, assumptions, and the like. Talk to the wind.

I note that you have deflected to an imaginary "Calvin" that no one but you know about.
Look in the Bible and see the wretchedness and helplessness of your condition so that you could do nothing to save yourself.
If you will not acknowledge you were shackled in sin, with no means of escape, then you indeed make God a liar, because God tells you that you were bound in sin.

Do you acknowledge this or do you contend against it?

 

[AVL1984]

To all INTERESTED parties...I made mention that the bloviator, AKA Austin, would continue to post to me after I made mention of his arrogance and how I would no longer respond directly to him in this thread. If one will notice, including the moderators/administrators, he has once again proven my point about Calvinists and their continued steamrolling techniques. His insinuations are bordering on slanderous, and I've put Austin on "ignore" once again. It's just not worth the aggravation of talking to a person who can only use circular reasoning. Y'all can take over from here, but I'm not wasting my time with this "brother" again.

 

[AustinC]

To all INTERESTED parties...I made mention that the bloviator, AKA Austin, would continue to post to me after I made mention of his arrogance and how I would no longer respond directly to him in this thread. If one will notice, including the moderators/administrators, he has once again proven my point about Calvinists and their continued steamrolling techniques. His insinuations are bordering on slanderous, and I've put Austin on "ignore" once again. It's just not worth the aggravation of talking to a person who can only use circular reasoning. Y'all can take over from here, but I'm not wasting my time with this "brother" again.

Please note that you are the one calling me names, claiming I have slandered when I have not, and blame a man 500 years removed.
I know that my pointing you to God's word, regarding our position before salvation bothers you greatly. You will not tolerate the idea that you and I were bound in the chains of sin before God chose to break through and save us out of our despair. This is entirely on you to consider scripture and admit you never came running to God since you were bound in sin. If this truth bothers you and you will not look at scripture, it is indeed best for you to ignore all who understand that God alone saves us out of our bondage.