Universalism

[Yelsew]

1) Does man have free will over Gods will?..
No, never has.

God gave man the ability to chose and the ability accept or reject. With but a few notable exceptions, God has not forced himself on anyone that is unwilling.

2) Is God (Completely) Sovereign ?..Yes.

There is but ONE GOD, therefore God is sovereign. However from a human point of view, if man is not willing to submit to God's sovereignty, for that man God is not sovereign. The Consequence of such is going to quite unpleasant for the man.

3) Is Jesus Blood sufficient to cover all sin? Yes.

Absolutely, But the covering of sins does not bring Salvation, lest everyone for the past two thousand years would be saved and behave in accordance with his salvation. We know from historical evidence that is not the case.

There remains a very big void, and that is FAITH. If EACH individual human does not possess FAITH in Jesus the Christ or IN God (one in the same with the Holy Spirit) then those lacking faith in God are not saved...Period!

 

[neal4christ]

How do you?

Diane, you don't answer a question with another question. You are dodging it. It is an honest question to you. You claim that your conclusions are lead by the Holy Spirit. I would just like to know how you know it is the Holy Spirit. How do you determine that it is the Holy Spirit leading you? What is your criteria in determining this? You have to have some, because you stated that it is the Holy Spirit that has led you to your conclusions. I am honestly asking you. I will answer you after I receive a response.

Thanks,
Neal

 

[Me2]

From what Has just been posted....


free will of man is above Gods will.

that Gods Sovereign will is just emotional whims.
(if man allows God to even have whims.)

the sufficiency of Jesus Sacrifice is based on mans belief on just what sins it can cover. and even if man wants jesus to cover their sin.

some here better hope universal reconciliation is not a heretical myth.

Me2

 

[neal4christ]

some here better hope universal reconciliation is not a heretical myth.

Love your support. And the way you engage what I post. (Yes, that is a note of sarcasm.) I am beginning to wonder if the universalists really read anything I post.

And regarding what I quoted from you: why? We have nothing to lose if you are right.

And please point me to some evidence to show that what God desires has to be brought to pass. Especially in regards to forced salvation. Couldn't it be possible that God desires all to be saved, and has even made it possible so that His holiness and justice is not compromised, yet leaves that choice up to the ones He is offering it to? It definitely does seem that there is a choice involved here. I guess it is not real, right?

Neal

 

[Me2]

neal,

both you and I know that many has not heard the jesus gospel message..

plain and simple. ...Billions...

I walked into universal salvation well after the fact of accepting Jesus as my Lord.

only one difference than most. I considered that If I could been saved then happenstance all should be saved.

the universal salvation message is within the scriptures..mostly of paul's letters.
and accepted as an adult concept.

we accept the love of God for self as a babe and child. we are told to love, forgive and show mercy to our brothers.

as young men were even further told to love our neighbors as self. later as jesus has loved us.

we are told to show mercy and forgiveness and love even as jesus has done to us. imagine total strangers. and Jesus is saying to us to consider dieing for them as he has done for us.

then finally love our enemies as he has loved us.

would God put us in a situation where we would actually be asked to decide to die for others. conplete strangers. thats the message.

he's showing us his nature, neal.

one man selflessly dying for us.

how can I deny him dying for others when thats his will.

universal salvation will open its message to whomever will allow it to. its there.

but its an adult message and yes, we as believers have to accept it by faith.
sight unseen. other than God whispering in our ears.. that is his will.

and again. we dont have a choice of him dying for us. but, we are responsible as to what we accept as what is the spirit and when we receive it.

and Im not responsible for your choices neal,

I can only hope your consoled when you hear a similar story about my relationship with God.

making your relationship with God, That much more real.

I just allow you to hear my testamony.

(and my Jokes )

and here's your desire..brought to pass.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Me2

 

[GH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How do you?

Diane, you don't answer a question with another question. You are dodging it. It is an honest question to you. You claim that your conclusions are lead by the Holy Spirit. I would just like to know how you know it is the Holy Spirit. How do you determine that it is the Holy Spirit leading you? What is your criteria in determining this? You have to have some, because you stated that it is the Holy Spirit that has led you to your conclusions. I am honestly asking you. I will answer you after I receive a response.

Thanks,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Neal,

I'm not dodging the question. It is a difficult one to answer. Can you answer it clearly? That is all I meant. My answer is this and it is the best one I can give: I know that I know when the Lord is revealing something to me. It can be after an extended period, sometime years, of asking, seeking and knocking for an answer. It can come suddenly without asking. It usually comes through deep suffering in the details of my life (He showed me His faithfulness this way). Very often I learn that I cannot control most of the things that have happened to me. (I learned His sovereignty in this way). I can only change myself so much (I learned to lean on Him through this). I know that I didn't choose Him for I wasn't seeking Him. (He taught me that He chooses whom He chooses in this way - for I know that I am nothing without Him). There are hundreds of things I can list, but the most compelling one for me is His love. For you see, I am unlovely and unloveable. And He loved me anyway.

Another important thing is the unlearning of much that I have been taught. Or rather, seeing it in a different light. One that is superimposed by the Father's love. He is the filter in which everything passes through. Becoming sensitive to His promptings which always involves loving other people and myself.

He is the one I run to first for everything. For every question, for every answer. He has not let me down once. Never in 18 years. This is why I lift Him up continually and try to magnify His awesome character. If you're looking at me, you'll be disappointed, but looking at and beholding our awesome, lovely God never disappoints.

I probably could go on and on about Him for He is my favorite subject to talk about. And please don't believe a word I say unless you bring it to Him. It's one on one. The only way to go for me.

I hope I've answered you fully.

Love In Him, Diane

[ May 28, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: GH ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Please show me where I said for you to be quiet. I just asked a simple question.

Okay, perhaps I misunderstood you when you said

Isn't this just too high risk to take?

in your earlier post. Could you please amplify on what you meant by this question? Are you saying we should not speak what we believe the Bible teaches, or are you saying that because you think there is a risk we should change our beliefs so that we are not taking a risk that you perceive we are taking even if we would be betraying what we now believe, or were you saying something else?

 

[KenH]

Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Now I would think we all agree that the first "all men" above literally means all men. Now what causes all men in the first part of the verse to suddenly become non-literal in the second part of the verse and become only some men, according to those who do not believe God will save everyone? In common sense it appears that the "all men" in the first part of the verse refers to the same universe of "all men" in the second part of the verse. Otherwise, what some are actually interpreting the verse to read is:

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for [some] men.

Why should we not accept "all men" to mean all men in both parts of the verse? If the non-universalist viewpoint is correct, then why did the Holy Spirit not have the verse written to reflect that viewpoint instead of the universalist viewpoint?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Me2:
From what Has just been posted....


free will of man is above Gods will.

that Gods Sovereign will is just emotional whims.
(if man allows God to even have whims.)

the sufficiency of Jesus Sacrifice is based on mans belief on just what sins it can cover. and even if man wants jesus to cover their sin.

some here better hope universal reconciliation is not a heretical myth.

Me2

Your bias has blinded you to what I said! I have not raised man above God. I have pointed out that man by his own God given devices resists God to his own detriment. And I have given you the biblical perspective of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

[ May 29, 2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[neal4christ]

Why should we not accept "all men" to mean all men in both parts of the verse?

Please notice the little words "leads to." It does say that "it is." Justification is available to all men. Christ's righteous act leads to justification for all. There is no discrimination. I don't deny that. But not all receive it. That is why the Holy Spirit did not inspire it to read that "it is" justification to all men.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Could you please amplify on what you meant by this question?

I could have phrased it better, Ken. I am just saying that from my perspective that the evidence is so small and strained for universalism that I do not think it is worth of risk of teaching it. I am not telling you not to believe it. Although, I do not see it at all as being Scriptural. I am not telling you to shut-up, Ken. Who would I go round and round with?

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I hope I've answered you fully.

Sorry I took your first response the wrong way. Thank-you very much for your answer.

In a sense, I can 'feel' the Holy Spirit's leading. But whatever I 'feel' I check with Scripture, where ever possible. Thus, I do not assert that the Holy Spirit is leading me if it is contrary to God's Word (such as killing 50 people and saying God told me to do it). Also, and very importantly, I make sure I do not have any known unconfessed sin in my life. So if I am not consciously sinning and what I 'feel' lines up with Scripture, and if all other circumstances that have bearing on the situation are in order, I have a pretty good inclination that it is the Holy Spirit's leading.

Neal

 

[GH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I hope I've answered you fully.

Sorry I took your first response the wrong way. Thank-you very much for your answer.

In a sense, I can 'feel' the Holy Spirit's leading. But whatever I 'feel' I check with Scripture, where ever possible. Thus, I do not assert that the Holy Spirit is leading me if it is contrary to God's Word (such as killing 50 people and saying God told me to do it). Also, and very importantly, I make sure I do not have any known unconfessed sin in my life. So if I am not consciously sinning and what I 'feel' lines up with Scripture, and if all other circumstances that have bearing on the situation are in order, I have a pretty good inclination that it is the Holy Spirit's leading.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. And your welcome.

 

[GH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why should we not accept "all men" to mean all men in both parts of the verse?

Please notice the little words "leads to." It does say that "it is." Justification is available to all men. Christ's righteous act leads to justification for all. There is no discrimination. I don't deny that. But not all receive it. That is why the Holy Spirit did not inspire it to read that "it is" justification to all men.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Neal, remember don't take my word for it, but please bring it to the Father for clarification. Here are a number of translations of Romans 5:18. May God bless you in your search:


18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. (Concordant)

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (NIV)

Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (KJV)

It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (Weymouth)

So then as through (1) one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (2) act of righteousness there resulted (3) justification of life to all men. (NASB)

18Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men. (Amplified Bible)

18Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. (New Living Translation)

18Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life. (Contemporary English Version)

18Therefore, as one trespass[1] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[2] leads to justification and life for all men. (English Standard Version)

18Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (NKJV)

 

[Smoky]

Then the Lord ceases to love the sinner after this life? I thought you denied this earlier!
---------------------------
Good dodge. Besides, I don't equate love = people in heaven. That is your definition. Without justification.

You're the one doing the dodging. You say God loves sinners in the next life and yet closes all the doors of grace to them at this time. That's a funny belief for someone who believes it's "not God's will that any perish". Is it because He "can't" save them at this time or because He "won't" save them at this time? You say God never forces anyone to receive Him to which I agree in full, but the question I ask is, "Is there ever a time where God forces people not to receive Him"? If not, then why do sinners not have the opportunity to receive Him in the afterlife? You say you don't equate love = people in heaven. Well, do you believe John 3:16?

Putting all these scriptures together tells me that all will receive Christ in the long run!
----------------------
Please look at where I answered GH's post in this thread concerning Rom. 5:17-19. You left out v. 18, by the way. Rom. 11:32 says "may have," not "will have." I am sure it is of little difference to you, but it does change the meaning. And by the way, those are not the only three verses in the Bible. Does you conclusion fall in line with the rest of Scripture?

Romans 5:17-19 (ESV)
If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
[18] Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:29-32 (ESV)
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [30] Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. [32] For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all .

I wasn't trying to manupulate or leave anything out! I presume you refer to the two words "leads to" in verse 18. How in the world would these words nulify the plain words "will have" in verse 19? And try to notice that it was the one trespass that "led to " the condemnation for all men, as well as "leads to" jusstification and life for all men. Now, about Romans 11:23-32, notice that it says that the" gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". This refers to the majority of the nation of unbelieving Israel, represented by the hated "Esau" in 9:13, the very people left out of God's elective purpose at this time and contrasted to the "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory". These very people left out of God's elective purpose are all now all saved!
Now, in verse 32, I ask, if one verse says "may have" and another says "will have", doesn't common sense tell you that those who "may have" sooner or later "will have"?

I can come pretty close. Of course we know the fire isn't literal because it wasn't literal to Jesus!
-----------------
So you can't, right? And by the way, I haven't even mentioned the nature of hell. Are you assuming something with me?

I think the scriptures I gave reveals no one stays in any lake of fire. I'm not assuming anything about you accept what you say.

So Christ didn't take away the sin of the world? You have people paying for sins that Christ paid for? Was His sacrifice not sufficient? Or is God just being mean? Talking about being unfair!

I think you are the one who on many occasions has said that one must "receive Christ" before receiving the benifit of sins that are paid for! You say you believe Christ died for the sins of the world, that those in hell are there, not because Christ didn't pay for their sins but because they didn't receive Him, but then you say God would be mean for administering "remedial punishment" to those who fail to receive! And then you say that once they are there, they never have another chance! Try to understand that Christ paid for the "just punishment" for sins, not punishment that has no end, else Christ would still be suffering!

To say,"I told you so, now suffer"? "You had your chance when I gave it to you, so don't ask me to accept you now, there are limits on how far I can go, you know!" -----------------------------
For your first statement, I have never said that. And no, that is not the reason. As for the second, I can't help that you don't like the fact that from Scripture we can see of only one chance. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can change it on a whim. People are not basically good and are not innocent. They reject some knowledge of God on every level. They resist His Spirit. Why should He keep on forever?

Yes but you imply it when you say the time comes when God never gives anyone another chance to repent. I don't think there are any scriptures in the Bible that give only one chance, however multitudes already given on this thread that imply otherwise! To answer your question "why should He keep on forever?" Because he loves them. John 3:16 "

 

[Yelsew]

That is good GH but can you show us in scripture where Justification is what saves all mankind?

Show us where Jesus said that, "by my justification of all mankind, all mankind are saved"?

If it is Justification that saves, for what possible reason does one require faith?

The atonement that is provided by the blood of Jesus is what Justifies mankind, and it is clearly stated in scripture that the atonement is for the sins of the world. The atonement is the justification of mankind because it wipes out our sins, thus justifying us before the throne of God.

The atonement does not sanctify us, nor does it save us. It prepares us for delivery to the Father who judges us according to our FAITH, and not our sins or our works. It is FAITH ALONE that saves us.

 

[Yelsew]

One thing you must recognize, Paul is not declaring God's will or intent or action. Paul is attempting to explain his understanding of God's will, intent or action. THEREIN lies the difference.

Paul was attempting to do for the Romans, Ephesians, Galations, Thessalonians, Phillipians, etc. what we are attempting to do to each other, and that is, make it plain what God's will, intent and actions are toward us, and what our response should be to God.

Some believe that God's will ends with love, and that God's love is the do all be all of salvation. While others believe that Love is an important ingredient, but that our individual FAITH is our salvation.

Thus we each attack the issues from a hundred different directions bringing up very confusing conditions for the salvation of man.

The only question that is really necessary is this, How are names written in the Lambs Book of Life? That is, what is the condition of a man that causes his name to be written in the book of life.

Scriptures say that some names are written from the foundation of the world, some are added to, and some are blotted from the book. BUT, all of mankind are judged by whether their name is written in the book. If your name IS NOT found there, you are cast into the lake of fire. If you name IS found there, you receive eternal life with Jesus. That is what the scriptures say.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Please notice the little words "leads to."

Yes, I see those words. I also see the parallel in this verse -

Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

The first part talking about Adam says "led" - referring to a past event. The second part talking about Christ says "leads to" - referring to an ongoing event as people come to Jesus in repentance and faith. Salvation for each individual happens over time.

 

[Yelsew]

[Heb 9:24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[Heb 9:25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[Heb 9:26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[Heb 9:27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[Heb 9:28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Once to die but after this the judgement. For those who do not come to faith in Jesus during this one life we have, at what point can they come to faith before the Judgment?

 

[neal4christ]

Here are a number of translations of Romans 5:18.

Thank-you, Diane. Yes, I looked up the Greek word for "leads to" the other day.

Neal