Universalism

[GH]

If you believe not God's Word, then who will you believe?


DHK, I don't believe your interpretation of God's word.

John 3:27 John the Baptizer speaks:

NO MAN can receive ANYTHING of his OWN will EXCEPT it is GIVEN from HEAVEN.

Now, if you don't believe this verse, who will you believe?

Do you think you can avoid the Lake of Fire except the power be given to you from heaven?

Ya know, even I don't think that I'm going to avoid the Lake of Fire. My puny will and decisions pales before the awesome mightiness of our God and Savior. Thy will, not mine be done, Almighty Father\o/

In His Loving Grace wherein I stand, Diane

 

[GH]

Originally posted by KenH:
Thanks for the kind words, Diane.

Me: You are most welcome, Ken.

The only argument that a non-universalist can make against the plain teaching of Romans 5:18 is that those who are justified and given life by God are not necessarily saved. And I really don't think they want to go down that road as to use that kind of reasoning could open up a whole big can of worms about all of the other salvific specific verses in the Bible. That kind of reasoning would cast doubt on whether any of us can truly hope to be saved if being justified, given life, being redeemed, don't mean that we are saved. How else would God express salvation to us than by these words? The only other method is to have confidence in man's ability and works instead of God's justification and redemption of sinners. And I don't think any Christian wants to think that salvation is based on himself and his performance.

Me: I agree wholeheartedly. Why that would be heretical, wouldn't it?

Also, I read where Thomas Talbott is having a new book published in July entitled Christian Universalism: The Debate which answers the arguments of those opposed to the teaching of the salvation of all people. This will be a great addition to his masterful work The Inescapable Love of God. Have you read this book, Diane? I am thinking about buying it. I have some of it on the Internet.

Me: I have read excerpts from The Inescapable Love of God. I think I'm going to buy it too. We can discuss, if you would like to.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

Me: Amen and Hallelujah!

Love, Di

PS: That verse I mentioned is John 3:27 - John answered and said to them, no man can receive anything of his own will, except it is given to him from heaven.

 

[GH]

From a post on another board. I don't know who wrote it:

WHAT IS GRACE?

THE Greek word for "grace" is charis, and it is kindred to the word chara, joy. G. Campbell Morgan said, "Grace is that which gives joy. By the Greeks charis was used
· (1) of art, music, the beautiful, anything that gives joy;
· (2) of the desire to give joy to others. The word meant this before Christianity touched it.
· (3) Then it was used or both these things together, and
· (4) it is the activity that carries out the desire and actually gives joy. Predicate these mounting ideas of God.
Grace is the desire in the heart of the blessed God to communicate His own joy to the hearts of others. Grace gladdens God. Grace is the passion of God to bless. Grace is the love of God seizing every opportunity to gladden the sinful and needful and graceless. Grace explains the mystery of the cross, for there grace took hold of sin and cancelled it."

R. W. Dale's definition is worth remembering: "Grace is love which passes beyond all claims to love. It is love which after fulfilling the obligations imposed by law has still an unexhausted wealth of kindness."

J.W. Jowett said: "Grace is energy. Grace is love energy. Grace is a redeeming love energy ministering to the unlovely and endowing the unlovely with its loveliness."
And again, "Grace is the divine energy of holiness issuing in the ministry of love in quest of the unlovely, and by the communication of itself converting the unlovely into the lovely."

Alex Whyte said: "Grace from its nature has only one direction it can take. Grace always flows down. Grace is love indeed, but it is God's love to creatures who do not deserve His love. And thus it is that God's love to sinners is always called grace in the epistles. All He does for us in Christ, and all that is disclosed to us of His good will in the gospel is called grace. It has been designated 'the speech of infinite love." George L. Rogers (Unsearchable Riches vol.16, p.28).

Ephesians does not deal with the pardon of sins, but the forgiveness of offenses. It is not in the sphere of government, or of the courtroom, but of the home. It has reference, not to God's rule, or His righteousness, but His feelings. We are not forsaking justification for a lower benefit. We are going on to a higher, even if one of the terms is borrowed from the lower. We have not only sinned and are justified, but we have offended God, and are forgiven. This forgiveness, however, is not measured by the mercy shown to the Circumcision. That was temporary because its term depended on its possessor instead of on God. This forgiveness is according to the riches of His grace. It were wise never to leave off this phrase. It raises the matter of forgiveness to the level of the context and makes it glow with glory.

 

[KenH]

That's a great post, Diane. Perhaps by discussing universal reconciliation we can point those who disagree with UR to a deeper appreciation of God's amazing grace. We all need that regardless of our theological viewpoint.

Also, do know about the special offer on The Inescapable Love of God from the author, Thomas Talbott? It is at tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/special.html.

By the way, I met an older person via the Internet last night who is going through a difficult time in his life and he said that he thought God didn't think much of him because of what he has done in the past. I was able to truthfully tell him that God's love is inescapable and that he just needed to trust Him.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

[ May 30, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
1) Salvation is not accomplished by grace. God saves, but not by grace.

2)Without human faith in God, God's redemption plan fails, and evil triumphs!

1)I am flabbergasted, Yelsew. Absolutely flabbergasted.

Ephes. 2:5 (ESV)
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Ephes. 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Look at what I placed in bold letters. Those are God's words in the Good Book, Yelsew - God's words. God says He saves us by His grace - His grace, Yelsew, not your faith. The Good Book says by grace through faith, Yelsew - not by faith through grace.

2)Yes, man must have faith, and repentance. Why do you not mention repentance? Some would say that repentance even comes before faith.

Acts 20:21 (ESV)
testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another area where we disagree is that you believe that God fails when man doesn't respond in faith, and that the devil wins. I totally disagree. God always accomplishes His purposes.

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ESV)
[9]remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

Isaiah 55:10-11 (ESV)
[10]"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
[11] so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Now you and I may disagree on what God's purpose is, but to determine God's success or failure based on sin-soaked humans' actions as you do, Yelsew, is just not what the Bible teaches. </font>[/QUOTE]NOW KENH, Please quote my exact words and see if I said God failed.

Do you really think that I would make such a claim?

In one post I claim Jesus to be my savior and then say that His Father failed.

NO SIR! You did not read what I posted. Go back and reread it. I welcome your comments on what I actually said.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
NO SIR! You did not read what I posted. Go

Okie dokie. You said:

Without human faith in God, God's redemption plan fails, and evil triumphs!

Could you amplify on the above? Here is how I understand what you said - You do not believe that God will save everyone. You do not believe that everyone will have human faith in God. Therefore, God's redemption plan fails in those people's lives and evil triumphs.

 

[Yelsew]

GH, Your most recent post,

Bolderdash! Without the power of the Holy Spirit linquistic scholars don't know diddlely. Dead words on a dead page without the Life of the Spirit to make them alive \o/

and now your post that sparked the most recent post. Bold emphasis is my way of pointing our the specific thought in question.

posted May 30, 2003 07:14 AM Profile for GH Email GH Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Therefore we truly see these things differently, as if you believe in a different God than the biblical God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear brother, I agree that we see it differently hence the discussion. And I agree we believe in a different God. Jesus said, "Mercy triumphs over judgment." The doctrine of eternal hell and eternal damnation is based on pagan beliefs. It came into the church in full strength during time of Constantine. People with no faith ran with it to control the masses. God never intended to burn His children in the fire for eternal destruction. In fact, it never entered His mind. It is man's doctrine that has been handed down. But he who has been freed by the Way, the Truth and the Life is free indeed. We ARE burned up though in His love which heals and makes whole and restores.

In one post you say the Holy Spirit has no power to prevent pagan beliefs from entering the Holy Scriptures and thus the church, and now you say the linguistic scholars who translated the scriptures cannot do anything without the Holy Spirit. Do you not see the contradiction in your own beliefs?

In one post you give paganism credit for powers that exceed those of the Holy Spirit and you attribute it to Constantine's rule. While in the most recent post you say that the biblical Scholars cannot translate one language into another without the help of the Holy Spirit. You imply that the Holy Scriptures that we have today are the result of paganism because they contain parts that describe eternal damnation and eternal punishment for man that doesn't believe, while saying that man could not translate the scriptures without help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. So are you now saying that the Holy Spirit leads man into paganism?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
NO SIR! You did not read what I posted. Go

Okie dokie. You said:

Without human faith in God, God's redemption plan fails, and evil triumphs!

Could you amplify on the above? Here is how I understand what you said - You do not believe that God will save everyone. You do not believe that everyone will have human faith in God. Therefore, God's redemption plan fails in those people's lives and evil triumphs. </font>[/QUOTE]Conversely, If even one human comes to faith while God's grace prevails God's plan is a success!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Conversely, If even one human comes to faith while God's grace prevails God's plan is a success!

Then you are admitting I was correct, you believe that God's redemption plan can fail(so why did you fuss about what I said about what you said? ). But, you see, I do not believe that God fails in any of His purposes.

 

[Yelsew]

GH,
Since the definitions of grace that you posted do not square with scripture, I thought you might consider one that does. I'm Quoting A. W. Tozer, "Knowledge of the Holy" in the Chapter titled "Grace".

In God mercy and grace are one; but as they reach us they are seen as two, related but not identical.

As mercy is God's goodness confronting human misery and guilt, so grace is His goodness directed toward human debt and demerit. It is by His grace that God imputes merit where none previously existed and declares no debt to be where one had been before.

Grace is the good pleasure of God that inclines Him to bestow benefits upon the undeserving. It is a self existent principle inherent in the divine nature and appears to us as a self caused propensity to pity the wretched, spare the guilty, welcome the outcast, and bring into favor those who were before under just disapprobation. Its use to us sinful men is to save us and make us sit together in heavenly places to demonstrate to the ages the exceeding riches of God's kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

In the reality that Grace is an attribute of God, that is, something true of God, it is while God employs that attribute that He constrains his attribute of Justice by which God would unleash His wrath on the whole of creation and none of us would live due to our sins. God's Grace prevails so that we can come to faith in God.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
You imply that the Holy Scriptures that we have today are the result of paganism because they contain parts that describe eternal damnation and eternal punishment for man that doesn't believe

Diane is stating that it is man's intepretation of the Holy Scriptures that has permitted pagan influences to enter into man's theology, not the Holy Scriptures themselves. By the way, before you disagree too vehemently about this you might want to do some historical research -

St. Augustine was the first major teacher of eternal punishment who did a lot of writing on it. Terullian wrote briefly about it before Augustine and tried to spread that, but all Christians thought he was completely nuts and against the words of Jesus. But, Augustine was the first serious proponent of endless misery which historically was for political reasons as the Christianity of the day was consolidating with Roman authority in the 5th century.

- community-2.webtv.net/eagleknightmin/Independent2

I urge you to do further research on this.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
God's Grace prevails so that we can come to faith in God.

God's grace prevails so He can have mercy on us all.

2 Cor. 5:19 (ESV)
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 11:32 (ESV)
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[neal4christ]

Ken, you have just shown us that it is possible that God can have mercy on all and that His holiness is not compromised when He accepts sinners because of what Christ has done on our behalf. But the message has to be believed, and Christ received. If not, people face the ramifications of rejecting Christ. Easy.

Neal

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Conversely, If even one human comes to faith while God's grace prevails God's plan is a success!

Then you are admitting I was correct, you believe that God's redemption plan can fail(so why did you fuss about what I said about what you said? ). But, you see, I do not believe that God fails in any of His purposes. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong, because Abraham had faith milleniums ago. God's Plan is a huge success incapable of failure.

Even so, If man was incapable of coming to faith, God's plan would have failed! God made us with the ability to come to faith, He provided the valid reasons, the objects of our faith. He also provided us a vision of what He plans for those who do not come to faith. But you deny that vision saying that God will save every human being regardless of faith.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by DHK:
2 Thes. 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

43. Please explain 2nd Thessalonians 1:9.
These are four words which we specially need to revise in order to understand this passage. These are "punishment," "everlasting," "destruction" and "presence." The revisers have changed the latter to "face" which avoids confusion with the period of His "presence." They also change "everlasting" to "eternal," for what reason it is difficult to see. If "eternal" means without beginning, as well as without end, as the best usage demands, then it is clearly no improvement over "everlasting." It is the usual word for eonian, and, instead of making infinite duration, restricts it to the eons. "Punished" is but a form of the word for "just." It means "justice" (Acts 25:15; 28:4). The word "destruction" is used only four times (1 Cor.5:5; 1 Thess.5:3; 1 Tim.6:9). To avoid confusing it with the word ordinarily so translated, we prefer the rendering "ruin." From this it is evident that some will "incur the retribution of eonian ruin from the face of the Lord" when He comes in the glory of that day.

- www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex2.html#43a

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Wrong, because Abraham had faith milleniums ago. God's Plan is a huge success incapable of failure.

I'm sorry, Yelsew, but you are not making any sense to me at all.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
If not, people face the ramifications of rejecting Christ.

I agree that there are ramifications for rejecting Christ. Where we are disagreeing is that I don't believe any individual will reject Christ forever and ever and ever and ever...

Now whether it is a matter of God's sovereignty(based on a Calvinistic understanding) that brings this about, or whether it is a matter of God being all-powerful and all-wise to bring about man's repentance and coming to Jesus through His knowledge of His own creatures and what is necessary to effect this in each one of us, I am now not settled on. I am doing further research on this matter - perhaps the answer lies outside the tradition boundaries of the Calvinism/non-Calvinism/Arminianism/Pelagianism theological grid.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is theological understanding of the Bible.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
You imply that the Holy Scriptures that we have today are the result of paganism because they contain parts that describe eternal damnation and eternal punishment for man that doesn't believe

Diane is stating that it is man's intepretation of the Holy Scriptures that has permitted pagan influences to enter into man's theology, not the Holy Scriptures themselves. By the way, before you disagree too vehemently about this you might want to do some historical research -

St. Augustine was the first major teacher of eternal punishment who did a lot of writing on it. Terullian wrote briefly about it before Augustine and tried to spread that, but all Christians thought he was completely nuts and against the words of Jesus. But, Augustine was the first serious proponent of endless misery which historically was for political reasons as the Christianity of the day was consolidating with Roman authority in the 5th century.

- community-2.webtv.net/eagleknightmin/Independent2

I urge you to do further research on this.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]Did Augustine or Constantine or Tertullian predate Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, Mark, etc?

Did the Holy Spirit allow the corruption of the writings of the Apostles thus rendering the scriptures unfaithful to Jesus?

Your argument has no validity. The scriptures written by the Apostles contain the revelation of God's intent for the unbelievers. The Holy Spirit ensured the accurate survival of those scriptures.

If you believe otherwise, then you deny that the scriptures are Holy Spirit inspired and protected. You might as well throw your bible away!

 

[neal4christ]

Where we are disagreeing is that I don't believe any individual will reject Christ forever and ever and ever and ever...

Hey, we agree on something! Isn't this two things within the last day or two? Wow, that is getting scary!

Neal

P.S. I also agree with that part on building a theology.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The Holy Spirit ensured the accurate survival of those scriptures.

Hey, Yelsew, the original manuscripts were flawless. The copies made in the original languages were still quite accurate. There is less security in the translations from the original languages into other languages(such as English), especially when the same Greek word is translated into different English words rather than being translated consistently into the same English word. Then further, we all know that human interpretations of even the original languages are liable to be incorrect. Otherwise, we could simply go back to the first commentaries ever written based on the original languages and simply agree with what was written. But even the earliest commentators disagree with each other.

Fortunately, my trust is in God, not in some translator or commentator.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/