Universalism

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hey, we agree on something! Isn't this two things within the last day or two?

Maybe that's because when we disagree we disagree reasonably.

And that leaves open the door for agreement.

Also, we are both believers. We aren't disagreeing about what happens to us, but about what happens to unbelievers in the next age. Since we are not challenging each other's salvation, our shields can be lowered and the debate can take place in a cordial manner.

 

[neal4christ]

Ken, you are starting to grow on me, my friend. Your not nearly as crazy as I thought you were when we first began.

(I still disagree with you on our current topic, though. ) But seriously, you definitely have helped me to try harder to stay calm when discussing these hairy issues. Thank-you.

Neal

[ May 31, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[Yelsew]

Fortunately, my trust is in God, not in some translator or commentator.

Since you came along some 2000 years after the ascention of the Christ, how is it you arrived at your trust in God? Was it not through the "faulty scriptures" handed down to your generation?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Was it not through the "faulty scriptures" handed down to your generation?

Please find, Yelsew, where I ever said the Scriptures are faulty. We all have some faulty interpretations but the Scriptures are true. We just struggle as sin-soaked humans to find the correct interpretation and we often fail at that.

Romans 3:4 (ESV)
By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged."

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
But seriously, you definitely have helped me to try harder to stay calm when discussing these hairy issues. Thank-you.

And thank you as well, Neal. I always find it easy to become overly emotional in debates. Unfortunately, emotion tends to negate my thought process and I end up defending a position instead of searching for truth. Also, message boards are rather impersonal and it is easy to say negative things toward someone that we would never say in person.

If you are coming from the same position toward universalism that I came from, my idea of universalism was what is called Unitarianism, a position that does not teach the exclusiveness of salvation through the finished work of Jesus alone. But I found that Christian universalism is a whole different animal. It is as much staked in Biblical exegesis as Calvinism or Arminianism. And, thanks to Diane, I found tons of information on the Internet to chew on.

Also, I think there is value is investigating what the early post-apostolic church believed on issues as that would be the time closest to the actual writing of the New Testament.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Was it not through the "faulty scriptures" handed down to your generation?

Please find, Yelsew, where I ever said the Scriptures are faulty. We all have some faulty interpretations but the Scriptures are true. We just struggle as sin-soaked humans to find the correct interpretation and we often fail at that.

Romans 3:4 (ESV)
By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged." </font>[/QUOTE]You did not, but GH, whom you strongly support on the topic has indicated that the scriptures could very well be faulty because they passed through the filter of paganism.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
but GH, whom you strongly support on the topic has indicated that the scriptures could very well be faulty because they passed through the filter of paganism.

No, she didn't. Diane said:

No - I'm saying that it was INTERPRETED based on pagan beliefs.

Diane said that interpretations are corrupted, not the Holy Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures are true. Interpretations of the Holy Scriptures may or may not be true. That has to be clearly evident to you, Yelsew, as Christians disagree on many interpretations of the Bible.

By the way, Yelsew, you might do well to listen to Diane and investigate this matter of universalism. Diane was the person God used to lead me to investigate universalism and I found the Scriptural evidence to be quite convincing. And for me to change my mind is not an easy thing to do since I am a stubborn, hard-headed Scotch-Irishman.

 

[Yelsew]

Well then, come on over to Clancy's pub an sip an ale with me. Ya, might jus' get the blarney stone noggin a yours set straight on your shoulders.

 

[GH]

Originally posted by KenH:
That's a great post, Diane. Perhaps by discussing universal reconciliation we can point those who disagree with UR to a deeper appreciation of God's amazing grace. We all need that regardless of our theological viewpoint.

Me: Thanks, Ken and I'm certainly open to discussing God's unfathomable love with you and anyone else who is interested. His perfect love casts out fear: this is my aim in life to get that message across to whoever has ears to hear and eyes to see, by God's grace.

You: Also, do know about the special offer on The Inescapable Love of God from the author, Thomas Talbott? It is at tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/special.html.


Me: I'm going there now, thanks.

You: By the way, I met an older person via the Internet last night who is going through a difficult time in his life and he said that he thought God didn't think much of him because of what he has done in the past. I was able to truthfully tell him that God's love is inescapable and that he just needed to trust Him.

Me: Bless you, brother, as you spread the good news of God's love for all people. May this man come to know how deep, how long, and how wide is His great love. He judges rightly - He is the only one Who really can because He is all-knowing. Man looks upon the outward appearance but God looks upon the heart It is His kindness that brings us to repentence. Amen? Amen!


You: Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

Me: Yea and Amen May the eyes of our hearts be enlightened \o/

Love in Him, Diane

 

[GH]

Dear Yelsew,

Ken has spoken very well for me in replying you concerning my posts (thanks Kenny

- you actually say it much better than I for I know that my "rose-colored" glasses are a stumbling block to some. May God grant me the skill to discuss His love in such a way that it is clearly understood.)

Yelsew, my brother in Christ, more than anything I want to connect with you scripturally so that you clearly understand what I attempting to say. And by God's grace it will be or not be.

I'm going to take a break for a little bit as my personal life will be taking up all my time for a few days. But I'll be thinking about and praying for answers to your rebuttals to what I've been posting.

Yours and everyone's prayers for my family are so needed and appreciated at this time.

The joy of the Lord is my strength. \o/

Love in Him, Diane

 

[Yelsew]

I trust that God will be merciful to you and your family in your current situation.

 

[neal4christ]

a position that does not teach the exclusiveness of salvation through the finished work of Jesus alone.

Ken, I am not coming from that direction. I have not really looked at Unitarianism, but I have looked at Universalism because I figured that it is the logical conclusion of Calvinism. I understand that you are not saying there are other ways to heaven and it is only through the finished work of Christ. Thanks for your input and warning, though.

Neal

 

[Smoky]

I don't want to leave the subject of universal reconciliation without sharing these interesting sites with everyone. I didn't know Tom Talbott had another book coming out soon. His entire book, "The Inexcabable Love of God" can be downloaded for a fee much less that ordering the book itself. Two other scholarly sites are included along with his which explain the case for universalism much better than I ever could. Thanks!

http://www.quodlibet.net/alexander-arminian.shtml
http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm
http://tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/index.html

 

[Smoky]

I would like to apologize to Neal4Christ for quoting him as saying hell was "endless torture". What he really said was, hell is eternal separation from God. My assumption was that "eternal separation from God" would surely be endless torture.

Also, I want to make clear what I believe about whether a person goes to hell for his sins or whether he goes to hell for rejecting Christ. Of course he goes to hell for rejecting Christ because by rejecting Christ he rejects grace, the unmerited favor and willingness to forgive us for our sins even though we don't deserve it! But the question I'm puzelled with is why the punishment for turning down forgivness for a sin would be greater than the punishment for the sin itself. If sins do not merit etermal punishment, but instead punishment say for a specified duration, why would the rejection of the free gift of grace, bring anything else accept the punishment for the sin unforgiven? I'd be glad to receive anyone's comments about this.

 

[neal4christ]

I would like to apologize to Neal4Christ for quoting him as saying hell was "endless torture".

Apology accepted, Smoke Eater. I would like to apologize if I posted inflammatory remarks towards you or seemed disrespectful to you. That is not what I intended, but sometimes I go to far. Hopefully when we encounter one another again we will be a bit cooler and discuss our matter at hand a little more calmly.

God Bless,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

If sins do not merit etermal punishment, but instead punishment say for a specified duration, why would the rejection of the free gift of grace, bring anything else accept the punishment for the sin unforgiven?

Because the sin has already been paid for. That is what Christ came for (John 1:29; I Pet. 3:18). When they reject the free gift they are rejecting eternal life with God. So what is left? They have chosen eternal death (separation). And that is hell. That is how I see it.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Smoke Eater:
"The Inexcabable Love of God" can be downloaded for a fee much less that ordering the book itself.

Here's another book I just found out about that is also available electronically -

www.1stbooks.com/cgi-bin/1st?partner~1st|type~6|Data1~15111

Here is the free preview portion of it:

About the Book:


Is hell forever? Most Bible teachers today say that the righteous go to heaven, and the wicked to hell, FOREVER! But is this what the Bible teaches?

"At the End of the Ages" presents evidence that the Bible, in the original languages, reveals that one day ALL mankind will be saved. Through time our Bible translations have become biased through the official teachings of "The Church."

The author argues that teaching about an eternal hell slanders God, and it prevents many from having faith because the arguments in support of an eternal torment are illogical. Would a God of love keep many souls alive forever just to torment them because they failed to "accept Jesus Christ" in this lifetime?

The author shows that the Bible does not teach this. The "lake of fire" is not forever, but only "for the eons," and exists for the purpose of correcting, not tormenting. The purpose of "the eons" (mistranslated "eternity") is to bring ALL mankind to the point where God’s authority is recognized, and every knee bows before Him.

Other books taking this position are usually very scholarly and difficult to follow. "At the End of the Ages" is written with the average reader in mind.

Bob Evely:


Bob Evely is a Marketing Manager for a real estate information company. He is a graduate of Oakland University (Rochester, Michigan) and has an M.Div. degree from Asbury Theological Seminary (Wilmore, Kentucky). For 8-1/2 years Bob served as a bi-vocational Methodist pastor, supporting his family through his full time employment.

In May, 2002 Bob resigned as pastor to found Grace Evangel Fellowship, a home church based in Wilmore, Kentucky.

Bob resides in Wilmore, Kentucky with his wife Jill. They have been married for 27 years and have five children.

This is the first book by the author. He can be contacted by writing to Grace Evangel Fellowship, P. O. Box 6, Wilmore, Kentucky 40390.

Free Preview:


G. Campbell Morgan is one of the most well-known and respected Bible teachers and preachers in history. He worked as an associate of D. L. Moody in the Northfield Bible conferences, and he served as pastor of Westminster Chapel in London from 1904-1917 and again from 1933-1945. During his second term at Westminster Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones served as his associate.

Morgan has become known as the "Prince of Bible Expositors," and has written a host of well known and respected books. The primary focus of his ministry was the study and teaching of the Bible.

In his book "God’s Methods With Men" (pages 185-6) Morgan says:

"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the
word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word.
There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal’
which as commonly used among us means absolutely without end. The strongest
Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God is— ‘unto the ages
of the ages,’ which does not literally mean eternally."


DON’T TAKE A MAN’S OPINION

Mr. Morgan was a serious student of the Bible, and he served within a very "orthodox" church setting, and he continues to this day to be highly respected by preachers and scholars; yet he tells us that when we read the word "eternity" in our modern English Bibles, it is not a correct translation ... at least not as we understand the word "eternity."

While Mr. Morgan was a life-long student of the Bible, we should not take his opinion on this matter without further study. The most important thing we learn from him is that not all qualified Bible teachers are in agreement on the issue of "eternity." When I first took my stand as to the beliefs expressed in this book, I was quickly challenged and told that the Greek word "aionian" which is found throughout the New Testament means, and has always meant, "eternal." As we can see, not all studied men and women agree on this point. Many will stand up today and tell you that "aionian" must be translated "eternal." Mr. Morgan is just one example of a well studied man who would disagree.


WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF?

You can buy a Greek study book, and depending on the author you may find that "aionian" means "eternal," or you may find that it means "age-abiding." You can read the translation of the Bible you have chosen, placing your faith in the translators ... that they got it right. You can listen to your pastor or your professor. You can read the opinions of men like G. Campbell Morgan or others who have written on the topic.

Or... you can look at the Bible and see for yourself!

You don’t need to be a Greek scholar. Read on!


INCONSISTENCIES IN THE TRANSLATIONS

In most cases our common English translators have taken the Greek word "aionian" or "aions" and translated it "eternal", "eternity", "forever", or some such word as these meaning endless. In many of these cases the word is referring to God Himself, or to "eternal life" or "eternal damnation."

But the translators encounter many difficulties, because in a fair number of cases the same word is used ("aionian" or "aion") and it cannot possibly mean endless.

To give you a quick summary, the words "aion" and "aionian" occur 199 times in the New Testament. In the King James Version the word is translated "ages" 2 times, "course" one time, "world" 43 times, and "eternal" or some variation the remaining 153 times. So in 46 of of the 199 times where we find the word "aion" or "aionian" (or 23% of the time) the King James Version recognizes that the word cannot be properly translated "eternal," since it is clearly a limited duration being expressed.

How could God, who is wanting to reveal things to us through the Bible, confuse us by using a single word that sometimes means "eternity" while other times carries a very different meaning? I realize that when we translate from the Greek it is sometimes necessary to use English "idiom" or expression to relay the meaning ... but could a single Greek word carry such opposite meanings as "eternal" and "temporary?"


LET’S LOOK AT JUST A FEW SAMPLE PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE

Compare the following passages. Note that in the Concordant Literal New Testament (CLNT) translation when the word "aionian" or "aion" is found, the English equivalent "eonian" or "eon" is used.

Ephesians 2:7
"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace..." (KJV)
"that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace..." (NIV)
"that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches..." (CLNT)

Colossians 1:26
"the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is
made manifest to his saints:" (KJV)
"the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now
disclosed to the saints." (NIV)
"the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations,
yet now was made manifest to His saints..." (CLNT)

Matthew 12:32
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him;
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (KJV)
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone
who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age

or in the age to come." (NIV)
"And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be
pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit,
it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is
impending." (CLNT)

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Smoke Eater:
I would like to apologize to Neal4Christ for quoting him as saying hell was "endless torture". What he really said was, hell is eternal separation from God. My assumption was that "eternal separation from God" would surely be endless torture.

Also, I want to make clear what I believe about whether a person goes to hell for his sins or whether he goes to hell for rejecting Christ. Of course he goes to hell for rejecting Christ because by rejecting Christ he rejects grace, the unmerited favor and willingness to forgive us for our sins even though we don't deserve it! But the question I'm puzelled with is why the punishment for turning down forgivness for a sin would be greater than the punishment for the sin itself. If sins do not merit etermal punishment, but instead punishment say for a specified duration, why would the rejection of the free gift of grace, bring anything else accept the punishment for the sin unforgiven? I'd be glad to receive anyone's comments about this.

What I am going to give are not steps but ingredients, the ingredients to salvation.

1. Atonement: Jesus Christ is the Atonement for the sins of the world. Therefore an individual's sins are not charged against him at the Judgement throne of God. Thus the individual stands before the judgment through Justified by the blood of Jesus.

2. Works: Salvation is not of works. We created humans, cannot do enough or good enough to earn our salvation. Therefore Works are not a factor in salvation.

3. Faith: Jesus said whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. When one comes to faith that one is forever set apart from those who do not have faith, therefore the one with faith is sanctified before the throne of God.

SO: with Sins atoned for, man is justified; and Works not part of salvation. That leaves faith and faith alone, which is sanctification, as the judgable measure by which God judges us. Those with faith in God are counted as righteous before the judgment throne.

This is the Gospel message, it was made simple to confound the wise. It is straight forward and easy to understand.

So, If one does not come to faith in God (Jesus, the Christ, the creator), then there is no reason for God to save them.

Now, let us look at end time prophesy. In Revelation we are told that this heaven and earth will pass away. Or, said more dramatically, will be burned up, and a New heaven and New earth will come into being.

The Judgment of all mankind comes at the end of this heaven and earth and those without faith in God, are cast into a lake of fire along with Satan, The false prophet, the dragon, and the demons. all representatives of evil, thus evil is cast into the lake of fire and the lake of fire "passes away" with this present heaven and earth thus it and all who were cast into it will exist no longer when the New Heaven and New Earth are created by God. Therefore there will no longer be any evil for the rest of eternity.

There is no reason for God to save those who do not believe in Him, and there is no excuses because all will know the truth by the time they die from this natural life.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So, if one does not come to faith in God (Jesus, the Christ, the creator), then there is no reason for God to save them.

One must come to Jesus in repentance and faith. Christian universalism agrees with that. Where you and I disagree is whether or not man has only a few short hours or at most a few short years to do so before being separated from God forever and ever and ever and ever... , or can he do so in the next age.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
with Sins atoned for, man is justified;

Yelsew, the Bible teaches that is a man is justified, he is saved. Period. Because to be justified is to be "just as if I never sinned" and "just as if I had always done everything righteously". One in that state is saved and cannot be lost. Period.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the justification provided by the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/