Unlimited Atonement

[HopefulNChrist]

The verse says" overcometh the world... will not be blotted out." A believers name will not be blotted out. One who rejects, whose name was in the Book WILL be blotted out. It is as it says BOOK of LIFE not a list of redeemed.
It will be the almost same when all is finished. Those who reject will be removed.

I still say you are reading His words wrong. It is understandable because "not" was derived from two Greek words which is a double negative which means He would never do that under any circumstances. That is the correct application because scripture cannot go against scripture when your application goes beyond what was written to assuming the opposite must be true when it is not, because of John 6:39.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It would not go to the glory of God as our Saviour if He could lose one. So you have to be reading Revelation 3:5 wrong.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The Greek words "ov un" is defined as "i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378."

So when I read this below:

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That means He is gett8ing every unrepentant saint and former believers that has His seal that got left behind.

 

[Yeshua1]

I still say you are reading His words wrong. It is understandable because "not" was derived from two Greek words which is a double negative which means He would never do that under any circumstances. That is the correct application because scripture cannot go against scripture when your application goes beyond what was written to assuming the opposite must be true when it is not, because of John 6:39.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It would not go to the glory of God as our Saviour if He could lose one. So you have to be reading Revelation 3:5 wrong.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The Greek words "ov un" is defined as "i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378."

So when I read this below:

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That means He is gett8ing every unrepentant saint and former believers that has His seal that got left behind.

The blood of jesus paid for ALL our sins, so why would they be left behind? The justification is EXACT same between one sold out for Christ, and one "doing their own thing" as long is really saved!

 

[Benjamin]

Not believing in some premillennial escapist rapture has nothing to do with advocating the doctrines of Millennial Exclusion. I don 't think he even knows what you are talking about, you either for that matter.

...on the other hand, though its been many years since I took part in exposing and ridding the BB of ME, after that quick and familiar sounding return prof-texting example above it could be you have called it out - starting to remind me of when a Calvinist comes on saying he came up with Calvinism all on his own from the scriptures and has never studied it while he lays out and defends the TULIP at every turn and with all the common prof-texts for it...

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Romasn 8:31-39 states that ALL who are saved period will go in the Rapture, or else be resurrected unto glorification at second coming event, correct? God does not have hte super siants get raised now, and the normal ones get it later?

Start from first verse, brother.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That means those who do not walk after the Spirit but after the flesh are condemned. See? What condemnation can there be for the unrepentant saint? Being damned as a vessel unto dishonor in His House as in disqualified from the Marriage Supper.

Think of it as what the church fails to excommunicate an unrepentant believer, God will excommunicate from the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Is that not what God will do to the unrepentant saints at the church at Thyatira in Revelation?

Here is why? To be seated at the Marriage Supper table in sincerity and in truth.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

See why God is coming to judge His House first? You really think all saved believers will be abiding in Him when He comes? That is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else.

 

[Yeshua1]

...on the other hand, though its been many years since I took part in exposing and ridding the BB of ME, after that quick and familiar sounding return prof-texting example above it could be you have called it out - starting to remind me of when a Calvinist comes on saying he came up with Calvinism all on his own from the scriptures and has never studied it while he lays out and defends the TULIP at every turn and with all the common prof-texts for it...

It is not to be posted here then, right?

 

[Benjamin]

Perhaps i am indeed ignorant to what that really means, please teach me on this, as I only heard Charles Stanley ever teach on it nefore!

I would have to do a lot of refreshing myself and my brain is too tired from work to get into it now but that said from what I remembering off hand and considering his last post, on second thought, you may not be that far off.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would have to do a lot of refreshing myself and my brain is too tired from work to get into it now but that said from what I remembering off hand and considering his last post, on second thought, you may not be that far off.

See, we can get along, do not always have to be on opposite sides here!

 

[Benjamin]

It is not to be posted here then, right?

That is correct, it was band here on BB as damnable heresy after several of us took aim at a group of ME proselytizers infiltrating the board. On the surface it is not immediately apparent where they are headed but the end result amounts to heresy. I'm sure I still have a lot of notes from in those days...

 

[HopefulNChrist]

The blood of jesus paid for ALL our sins, so why would they be left behind? The justification is EXACT same between one sold out for Christ, and one "doing their own thing" as long is really saved!

Being left behind at the pre great trib rapture does not mean they were not saved. Let's look at what Paul says on that day.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is God judging His House first at that day when the Bridegroom comes; any saved believer in unrepentant iniquity is left behind; the works that deny Him will be burned up; but the foundation remains as that seal of adoption is not going anywhere.

This warning is given to all believers as it applies also to Paul as he cites the consequence that can happen to him as well.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So there is a race to be run in discipleship; but it is not for salvation, but to be accepted by Him as a vessel unto honor.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Think of it as calling the prodigal son to repent, but instead, he gave up his first inheritance for wild living. The prodigal son can never get it back ( that inheritance to live in the city of God like the angels that can never die ) but he will return and he will find that he is still son. The elder son that remained was promised from the father that all that he has is his, but it is not the same for the prodigal son, see? Well, it is on God to cause the increase. Amen.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

That is correct, it was band here on BB as damnable heresy after several of us took aim at a group of ME proselytizers infiltrating the board. On the surface it is not immediately apparent where they are headed but the end result amounts to heresy. I'm sure I still have a lot of notes from in those days...

Can you provide the link to this rule about "Millennium Exclusion". I fail to see how it applies to God judging His House FIRST which is done at the pre great trib rapture for why Jesus has been warning believers to be ready or else.

It is not just repenting from iniquity, but we need His help to be willing to go because He warned that some believers will be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would be like Lot's wife in not wanting to leave.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That's right. Jesus. Himself, warned Christians will be ensnared by the cares of this life and by loved ones to not want to leave to go to the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

That is the cost of discipleship; not about giving up everything and loved ones while living down here, but being willing to leave everything and loved ones behind to join Him up in Heaven at the Marriage Supper table.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That last verse is repeated somewhat after each address to the 7 churches in Revelation 2nd and 3rd chapters to get ready.

Here is the warning against being like Lot's wife, even to rebuke the mentality that a believer thinks he or she can take something or someone with them from this life to Heaven.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus is warning believers; not unbelievers.

 

[utilyan]

If the atonement is applied to all, every human being, won't all be saved? (Universalism.)

And on the subject of the Atonement, don't you limit the Atonement to believers only, or do you think unbelievers will be saved too?

And do you equate Christ being the Savior to the Atonement? Isn't Christ the Savior of all mankind, not just the Jews, and isn't He the Savior whether or not they believe Him?

And doesn't Christ's death provide positive blessings even to the unsaved? Don't the former and latter rains fall on the just and on the unjust?

And doesn't the passage indicate that Christ's sacrifice makes the Gospel Offer legitimate to all people everywhere, even if they do reject it?

God commands all mankind not to sin. But folks still clueless to what he wants!?

Is it a sin for a reprobate to reject Jesus as his savior? Is he telling the truth or is it a sin?


1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.



Everyone gets a parachute, not everyone wants to pull the cord.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

God commands all mankind not to sin. But folks still clueless to what he wants!?

The only sin that the Holy Spirit will convict of is the sin of unbelief in Him since any one whose name is not in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Discipleship or running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is separate from salvation since He has to be our author and finisher of our faith in order for us to run that race as a saved believer.

So God commands us to believe in Him to do God's work in us in helping us run that race to "not sin". He does not command us to look to ourselves not to sin, but to look to Jesus and believe in Him to help us not to sin as in leading us away from temptation and even delivering us from the evil one when he comes like a roaming lion seeking whom he may devour.

Sometimes, we need even His help to keep hoping in Him to help us not to sin.

Is it a sin for a reprobate to reject Jesus as his savior? Is he telling the truth or is it a sin?

The unbelievers can never be a reprobate because that would meant that he at one time, qualifies. Reprobate is to be disqualified and therefore can only apply to believers not abiding in Him to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper. That means they become vessels unto dishonor in His House, but they are still saved and still in His House as a testimony to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.

1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Everyone gets a parachute, not everyone wants to pull the cord.

I like that analogy. The one I refer to is Jesus Christ is the antidote to the poison in every sinner, and that refusing to believe that the antidote will save them does not change the fact that they are dying anyway without Him. Some prefer dying in their sins and thus reaping the full effect of sin; eternal separation from God and all that is good; hence hell and eventually the lake of fire.

 

[Yeshua1]

Being left behind at the pre great trib rapture does not mean they were not saved. Let's look at what Paul says on that day.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is God judging His House first at that day when the Bridegroom comes; any saved believer in unrepentant iniquity is left behind; the works that deny Him will be burned up; but the foundation remains as that seal of adoption is not going anywhere.

This warning is given to all believers as it applies also to Paul as he cites the consequence that can happen to him as well.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So there is a race to be run in discipleship; but it is not for salvation, but to be accepted by Him as a vessel unto honor.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Think of it as calling the prodigal son to repent, but instead, he gave up his first inheritance for wild living. The prodigal son can never get it back ( that inheritance to live in the city of God like the angels that can never die ) but he will return and he will find that he is still son. The elder son that remained was promised from the father that all that he has is his, but it is not the same for the prodigal son, see? Well, it is on God to cause the increase. Amen.

Paul stated that even one who has NO eternal rewards will be saved, as if by fire, and the Lord Jesusu stated that ALL whom the Father give Him shall ALL be raised up together! Again, the man who is saved and yet has sin issues refuses to deal with is just as fully justified before God as Apostle paul its just that while both make it, Paul has MANY rewards, the other, not so much!
At the rapture, or the second coming event, the ONLY thing God will look for to have Him raise them up is the sign of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, not how Obedient he is!

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Paul stated that even one who has NO eternal rewards will be saved, as if by fire, and the Lord Jesusu stated that ALL whom the Father give Him shall ALL be raised up together! Again, the man who is saved and yet has sin issues refuses to deal with is just as fully justified before God as Apostle paul its just that while both make it, Paul has MANY rewards, the other, not so much!
At the rapture, or the second coming event, the ONLY thing God will look for to have Him raise them up is the sign of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, not how Obedient he is!

I did not say he would not be saved, but 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ties in the consequence of not departing from iniquity and thus defiling the temple of God for which physical death will come ( verses 16-17 ) as it is the warning to the church at Thyatira to repent of their fornication or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as God will judge every believer in according to his works with death when found disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper and thus left behind.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I know some Christians will think of a believer living in unrepentant sin or in a heresy as not saved, but His words doesn't validate that judgment. Those left behind are still saved and thus still His, but because of unrepentant iniquity on that foundation, it needs to be burned away before they can be accepted by Him and unfortunately, that disqualifies them from attending the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honor in His House to be received later on after the great tribulation as a vessel unto dishonor in His House.

So make no mistake; God is coming to judge His House first and that is where the vessels unto dishonor in His House comes from; they are the disqualified and thus the damned because they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the door to the Marriage supper has been shut, but they are still in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, even though they did not look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received by the Bridegroom.

I thank Him that I hope in His mercy in helping me to abide in Him in running that race by laying aside every weight & sin. Do you?

 

[Rockson]

Only those who are born of God accept Him. John 1:13 couldn’t be any clearer if John had tried.

Wrong! You didn't even read the verse before!

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Jn 1:12

If ones asks did they receive you into the party that means they consciously had to do so and make decision to do it. If that's not clear he even added "to them that believe on his name". Born again happens AFTER believing although Calvinists mix this up.

Free will does not exist.

Yes it does but if one allows Calvinism to force what the term into what they insist it must mean then of course one can walk away hopelessly confused and if you buy their line then I guess you'll have to agree with them. I DON'T. They'd claim if you have free will that means you wouldn't have to sin. Such is nonsense! Free will has nothing to do with your ability to achieve a certain thing. I can't lift 500 Ibs but who can say I don't have the free will to try? I can't become righteous by seeking to keep the Mosaic law but who ways I can't will to want to? Yes the human race is enslaved to sin but what slaves in the deep south didn't want their freedom?


The whole human race became ensnared in sin when Adam fell.

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”[Matthew 6:24]

Jesus says no one can serve two MASTERS. So, the lost have Satan as their master. If one has a master, they are slaves. Slaves are not free.

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.[Romans 6:5-7]

The lost are slaves to sin. Only the Christ can free us from that slavery to Satan.


Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.[Romans 6:16-18]

The lost are slaves to sin, but thanks be to God, He frees them from Satan, sin and law of sin of death.[Romans 8:2][/QUOTE]

 

[SovereignGrace]

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Right here is the saddest thing I can ever read, and it coming from a fellow Christian, and Brother in the Lord.

The cross did not meet all the conditions according to your view. It is the cross work of the Christ plus what you did that gave you salvation, eternal life. Nope.

The cross procured salvation for all of the Christ's sheep. He is a Perfect Saviour of an most unperfect ppl. The cross did for them what they could not do for themselves. He died for the sins of His sheep, period. In the cross, expiation, propitiation, justification took place. What I mean is His raising from the dead gave all His sheep justification.[Romans 4:25] By His death He expiated His sheep's sins, satisfied the righteous demands of the Law that no one could have accomplished.

No sir. The saving of the Christ's sheep is not conditional whatsoever. Not from our standpoint, that is. He met every requirement for His sheep and He is now able to justify His sheep.

 

[Revmitchell]

Right here is the saddest thing I can ever read, and it coming from a fellow Christian, and Brother in the Lord.

Unnecessary statements like this are why things stay so heated on this board.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Don't try to deflect by changing the subject.

You changed the subject, not me, Tom.

You have yet to answer the question which you falsely claimed was a strawman.

I answered the question, just not to your liking.

To you any question you can't honestly answer is a strawman.

Gross exaggeration and patently false. Do a search and see how many times I've even used the word "strawman" in 16 years.

When you can't answer a question, and your claim of "strawman" is not working, just launch a personal attack. Works every time.

It seems to work well for you, Tom.

And another personal attack in case the first one didn't work.
And yet another personal attack when the first two didn't work.

Only to those who are thin-skinned. I am suspect of those who use the "personal attack" card repeatedly.

No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.
No universal atonement there.

It is a given that we're not going to agree here. No worries; there are good men, both past and present, that are in agreement that these do indeed support unlimited atonement.

If my telling you the truth and believing the bible, offends you, by all means report it.

You didn't offend me, Tom. This is a hobby. I don't take these debates too seriously.

If that is not what you believe explain how a person whose sins have been atoned for can ever go to hell? (And "strawman" is not a valid answer.)

First, "strawman" is a valid answer because you are asking the question on the flawed premise that I must accept your theological position and base my answer to your liking.

Second, since the atonement is unlimited and Jesus died "once for all," that means that every man, woman, boy, and girl has an opportunity to appropriate Christ's atonement to their own sinful condition.

Your problem is that you mistakenly try to fit this position into the Universalism box. Christ died that all men might be saved, not will be saved (John 3:17).

So, Christ's atonement was indeed for the "iniquity of us all;" even for those who rejected the Lord and are in hell today. There are no sinless people in hell today, just people who failed to place their faith and trust in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

This is my last word on this thread. My wife and I have a nice, relaxing motorcycle (Suzuki Boulevard 1500 for those curious)ride to Hot Springs that starts right after I get through with classes this morning. She is a much higher priority than arguing on a public forum.

 

[37818]

My problem with universal atonement is that it doesn't pay for all sin. If it did, all would be saved. So if we must stop committing a certain sin(s) in order to trigger the atonement, salvation depends on our righteousness and not Christ's shed blood.

Simply not true. Christ died for all. ". . . if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ." And all men are dead without Christ. If any do not accept this gift, they will be greater damned by Christ being their Judge. (Also Romans 14:9-11.)

 

[Rockson]

Of course God will not violate free will. He will not violate something that does not exist.

Yes it does exist!

The will of the lost man is not free.

Well if we allow you to set the terms about just what free will is then maybe you'd score your point. Calvinists want to connect FREE WILL with ability to achieve anything. If you have free will you should be able to break all the laws of physics jump up in the air about 100 feet and not have gravity to pull you down. That's NOT what free will is. Free will is where God has set up a system and nobody is forced or into obedience and where all can freely choose. It's not about if your will is free that means you should be able to keep a morality law with perfection. At least that's what I hear some Calvinists keep harping about.

It is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

Doesn't mean they can't by an act of their free will desire a better life.

The will of the saved man is not free. It is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

Well now you've just proved my point. If whatever one is bound to means they don't even have the will to choose anything else then why do Christians still sin? You wouldn't say that originated out of their FREE WILL? But I thought you said Christians are bound by the New Life and could never desire a sin. It seems therefore you change the goal posts of what bondage means to one class but fail to acknowledge the same rules would have to apply to the other. Not very consistent.