Unlimited Atonement

[1689Dave]

My problem with universal atonement is that it doesn't pay for all sin. If it did, all would be saved. So if we must stop committing a certain sin(s) in order to trigger the atonement, salvation depends on our righteousness and not Christ's shed blood.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Some of us, my friend, do not have the time to waste by posting an average of 3.5 post a day since joining the board. Nor do we always have the time to jump on right away to respond to a post. I post when I want and when I can. I never feel an obligation to respond to anything on this board. This is a pleasant distraction for me, nothing more. Never mistake silence for ignorance. Some us are actually involved in the ministry.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

But wait. The Atonement is not offered to the sinner. The Atonement is offered to the one offended. Our sin offends God. He does not offend us. The Atoning blood is on the mercy seat in heaven. If it has been offered for us our sins are blotted out.

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If it was offered for everyone, everyone's sins have been blotted out. That is Universalism, which I know you don't believe.

You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

But your theology makes Universalism necessary. If the Atonement was offered for everyone (not to everyone) then everyone's sins are blotted out.

We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.

So how does a sinless person end up in hell?

Strawman

It is not available for anyone. It is on the mercy seat in heaven.

Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.

Romans 10:13 is talking about salvation, not the Atonement. They are not the same thing. Salvation is the result of the Atonement being offered for us, by Christ, to the Father.

That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

 

[37818]

Christ died and rose from the dead to be Lord of all men, securing salvation for His redeemed and the greater damnation of the perishing (Romans 14:9-11).

 

[SovereignGrace]

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.


We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.


Strawman


Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.


That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

God was propitiated, not man.


"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[SovereignGrace]

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.


We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.


Strawman


Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.


That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

Taking away sins[John 1:29] is expiation, not propitiation.


"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[SovereignGrace]

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.


We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.


Strawman


Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.


That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

Propitiation means God’s wrath is appeased, satiated, satisfied. If the Christ literally appeased God’s wrath, then there is no wrath from God. Yet it said it abides on children of disobedience.[John 3:36] There’s no wrath for God to mete out on the day of Judgment.


"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[SovereignGrace]

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.


We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.


Strawman


Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.


That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

Expiation means to remove one’s guilt from them. If the Christ took away, literally the whole world’s sin, then everyone stands sinless before God.

That’s why @TCassidy asked why would sinless ppl go to hell.


"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[SovereignGrace]

The atoning blood is on the Mercy Seat in heaven, I agree. The act of the Atonement by Christ on our behalf most certainly is for the sinner, thank God!
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb of God, which taketh away [atones for] the sin of the world.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died [made atonement] for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died [made atonement] for us.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You are correct; I do not hold to Universalism. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon our repentance toward God and our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.


We need look no further than Jesus' parable of the wedding supper to find the answer here. Everyone was bidden, many refused the invitation. It was offered to all but only a few accepted the offer.


Strawman


Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.


That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

Romans 5 is written to the family of God, not all mankind indiscriminately.

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[Yeshua1]

In their view, the cross saved no one. It only makes ppl savable.

The Cross made it possible to have saving grace now goout to all sinners, but it is up to us to decide to receive/reject Jesus now.

 

[Yeshua1]

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“We possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God’s work, Christ’s work, or there is no salvation.” - Michael Horton

“God Himself supplies the necessary condition to come to Jesus. That’s why it is sola gratia, by grace alone, that we are saved.” - R.C. Sproul

Winner! Just add in something from Spurgeon, and its a grand slam dunk!

 

[Yeshua1]

Some of us, my friend, do not have the time to waste by posting an average of 3.5 post a day since joining the board. Nor do we always have the time to jump on right away to respond to a post. I post when I want and when I can. I never feel an obligation to respond to anything on this board. This is a pleasant distraction for me, nothing more. Never mistake silence for ignorance. Some us are actually involved in the ministry.

How would you pray for a lost sinner then to get saved? God open up their hearts and minds, or what?

 

[loDebar]

Isn't that a promise more than a threat? “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

not a threat but results of actions. one's name remains the other is remove.

 

[loDebar]

Propitiation means God’s wrath is appeased, satiated, satisfied. If the Christ literally appeased God’s wrath, then there is no wrath from God. Yet it said it abides on children of disobedience.[John 3:36] There’s no wrath for God to mete out on the day of Judgment.


"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

wrath remains on the unrepentant

 

[loDebar]

How would you pray for a lost sinner then to get saved? God open up their hearts and minds, or what?

yes, The Holy Spirit leads men to know Jesus,

 

[SovereignGrace]

wrath remains on the unrepentant

But propitiation removes that wrath. If God was propitiated for literally everybody, then everybody has God’s wrath removed from them.

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself." - D Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[TCassidy]

Strawman

And there is the problem, Bob. You start these threads and when you are asked a question you can't answer you make a false claim of "strawman." But you know the real reason you don't answer is that you can't answer it and cling to your mistaken theology. If the Atonement is for all, all sins are paid for, and everybody goes to heaven. You can't have it both ways.

Again, you're talking about the blood. I'm talking about the act of the atonement as do many of the NT writers.

And this is what happens when you try to adjust the bible to fit your theology instead of the other way around. Now you are claiming the blood atonement is NOT the blood atonement. One of the great heresies in Christendom a few decades ago was the denial of the atoning blood of Christ. And here you are denying the atoning blood of Christ.

To deny the blood atonement is a terrible heresy.

Exodus 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.

Leviticus 16:27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

2 Chronicles 29:24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.

That was verse was given as reference to calling on the name of the Lord as the condition for salvation. It is obvious that is it not talking about the Atonement.

Again, Bob, you demonstrate a lack of understanding of what scripture is saying. Paul was not writing to a church when he wrote Romans. (Notice it is not addressed "to the church that is at Rome," but just to "Romans.") He is addressing the Jews who were driven out of Jerusalem and settled in Rome. He says to them "you believe in the Father, you even believe in the Holy Spirit, but there is yet one thing you lack. If you will call on the Name of the LORD (recognize that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, LORD being the Covenant Name of God in the Old Testament, the One who is the Savior, the Messiah) you will be saved. There is no magic in mouthing the world "Lord." It is the Jews recognizing the Messiah that is addressed in Romans 10.

And, yes, recognizing the Messiah was a requirement for the Jews, but it is clear that the ones who will recognize the Messiah are the ones who already were God's people and "none would be lost" in the transition from OT to NT.

So, again, salvation is unconditional. You do not meet any condition of holiness apart from Christ. You will not repent without regeneration. You will not believe without regeneration. You will not call on the Name of the Lord without regeneration. The bible is clear. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Unless you are born again (regenerated) you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven." The Greek word for "see" is ιδειν (idein) and it means "to perceive" or "to know." If you are not born again you can't perceive, know, understand the Kingdom of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

wrath remains on the unrepentant

The cross of the cross actually did these...

—propitiated our sins to God. God was the One propitiated, not us. In this propitiation, He was satisfied by His Son’s cross work. It removed His wrath from those for whom the Christ died for. If He died for everybody, there’s no more wrath abiding on disobedient ones, no vessels of wrath(which invalidates Romans 9) for Him to pour His wrath upon.

—expiated our guilt. The Christ, by Him taking the sins of His sheep upon Himself, took their sins and guilt from them. By them being saved by the cross, they now stand before God in Him, and God sees them as being sinless, having been imputed His righteousness.

 

[loDebar]

The cross of the cross actually did these...

—propitiated our sins to God. God was the One propitiated, not us. In this propitiation, He was satisfied by His Son’s cross work. It removed His wrath from those for whom the Christ died for. If He died for everybody, there’s no more wrath abiding on disobedient ones, no vessels of wrath(which invalidates Romans 9) for Him to pour His wrath upon.

—expiated our guilt. The Christ, by Him taking the sins of His sheep upon Himself, took their sins and guilt from them. By them being saved by the cross, they now stand before God in Him, and God sees them as being sinless, having been imputed His righteousness.

but only to those who accept Him,

God will not violate Free Will, or there would not be sin anyway

 

[JonShaff]

It removed His wrath from those for whom the Christ died for. If He died for everybody, there’s no more wrath abiding on disobedient ones, no vessels of wrath(which invalidates Romans 9) for Him to pour His wrath upon.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!