Unlimited Atonement

[webdog]

So, the inevitable conclusion of your statement is that God looked down thru time and saw that you, despite your sin nature, will have faith in Christ, therefore, there is good in you, right ? And because of the good that is in you, he elected you.

Why is that the inevitable conclusion? Why not He sees our coming to Christ in faith? I don't hold to this "God looking through the corridors of time" understanding.

Actually, this is the very thing I have heard calvinists say in regards to infants that die. They have stated if they died as an infant, they would have been one of the elect as adults. The same "God looking into time" applied differently.

 

[Jerome]

God has not appointed salvation by enquiry-rooms. . . . For the most part, a wounded conscience, like a wounded stag, delights to be alone that it may bleed in secret.
Charles Spurgeon

Your pasted together "quote" actually comes from two different Spurgeon sermons preached years apart:

The "enquiry room" part before your ellipses comes from the 1884 sermon "Putting the Hand Upon the Head of the Sacrifice":

Do you go again and again into the inquiry-room? O sir, what will become of you? You will perish in your sin; for God has not appointed salvation by inquiry-rooms and talks with ministers, but by your laying your own hand upon the sacrifice which he has appointed.

The "wounded stag" part of your "quote" after your ellipses comes from an entirely different sermon, preached years before (in 1877), "The Danger of Unconfessed Sin":

I would not recommend persons under conviction of sin always to hide their souls' sorrows from their Christian friends. They might often be much helped if they would communicate their thoughts to those who have gone further on the road to heaven, and know more about Christ and the way of salvation. Yet, for the most part, a wounded conscience, like a wounded stag, delights to be alone that it may bleed in secret. It is very hard to get at a man under conviction of sin; he retires so far into himself that it is impossible to follow him. Ah, you poor mourners, I know how you try to conceal your pains. I will tell you one reason why you do not like to tell your mother, your sister, your brother. It is because you think your feelings are so strange: you suppose that nobody ever felt like you; you have the notion that you must be the worst person that ever lived, and therefore you are ashamed to tell what you feel for fear your friends should scout you out of their society.

__________
Your source Murray (who is anti-invitation) portrays Spurgeon as approving the wounded-stag-bleeding-alone concept. Actually, Spurgeon is telling sinners not to suffer alone, but rather to make their struggle known.

 

[Winman]

So, the inevitable conclusion of your statement is that God looked down thru time and saw that you, despite your sin nature, will have faith in Christ, therefore, there is good in you, right ? And because of the good that is in you, he elected you.

What, then, are you going to do with these words of the Creator God Himself, as Jesus:

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18...

or this:

They are all gone aside , they are all together become filthy : there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Psalm 14:3

What good was there in me? Because of God's word I was made to know I am a sinner and not good enough to merit salvation. His word convicted me, and his word revealed that he loved me and gave his Son to die for my sins. His word told me I could trust Jesus and be saved. How does this make me good? If he did not reveal this to me I would die in my sins.

You could be the biggest thief and liar in town, a completely untrustworthy person, but you could still believe a promise made to you by your godly mother whom you know to be trustworthy.

Trusting an honest person does not make you yourself good, but it does honor that person and give credit to them.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jerome

If this be true, you have shown I quoted a man that wrote a book with a slant. The quotes were true, and i backed it with the source which it came from. And no one can say it was my intent to mislead, but share what I knew to be true. Yet with your words which I trust to be true I will hand you the victory, without debate. Therefore i must say, based on your words, the statement i posted a year ago may not have been right.

You on the other hand sir willfully mislead with full intent. Not once, not even two or three times, but countless. Day after day. And with it, you have no shame.

This , as a believer, I cannot understand.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And it does. Those are solid remarks, and I stand by them.

What you are good at, Jerome, is taking remarks out of context. You are forever misrepresenting Spurgeon this way, for example.

Calvinism is complex. It is deep and it requires deep meditation.

It is also based on truths that humans find unpalatable- so one must be spiritually mature to go against their fallen nature to receive these particular truths of Scripture that Calvinism systematizes.

Its complexity and depth and anti-man nature means that one must indeed have reached a certain level of intellectual and spiritual maturity to grasp it.

That should be offensive to no one.

I also further clarified in antecedent posts that Arminianism also requires a certain level of spiritual and intellectual maturity to grasp.

But I noticed you did not bother to copy and paste those remarks of mine so that you might represent me more honorably.

Right you are boyo......defend yourself & stand tall in your convictions :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why is that the inevitable conclusion? Why not He sees our coming to Christ in faith? I don't hold to this "God looking through the corridors of time" understanding.

Actually, this is the very thing I have heard calvinists say in regards to infants that die. They have stated if they died as an infant, they would have been one of the elect as adults. The same "God looking into time" applied differently.

And maybe there is a doctrine that all dead Infants or those murdered by abortionists go to heaven. Its in the confessions of Faith 1689. :tongue3:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Why is that the inevitable conclusion? Why not He sees our coming to Christ in faith?

Well, then, what IS the inevitable conclusion ? So He sees your coming to Christ in faith, then you have a good thing within you, unless you don't hold faith to be a good thing.

I don't hold to this "God looking through the corridors of time" understanding.

Good.
Neither do I. I just paraphrased what most "Arminians" say.

Actually, this is the very thing I have heard calvinists say in regards to infants that die. They have stated if they died as an infant, they would have been one of the elect as adults. The same "God looking into time" applied differently.

God knows the end from the beginning so He knows which individual gets to adulthood, and which one will die at infancy so I wouldn't even think of saying "if I get to adulthood".
Revelation tells us that the unelect are judged according to their works, and according to whether their names are or are not in the Lamb's book of life, so babies have not done any works they can be judged for.

 

[Jerome]

Amidst all these false charges, I thought some might like to see a real example.

By the way, Murray did not put together your "quote"; it is all over the web. As far as I can tell, the originator of the "quote" may be Reformed Baptist Fred G. Zaspel:

Charles Spurgeon often warned against the invitation system, even in his public preaching to the lost. It was not uncommon to hear him warn,

"God has not appointed salvation by enquiry-rooms...For the most part, a wounded conscience, like a wounded stag, delights to be alone that it may bleed in secret."

From a 1998 Zaspel publication entitled "The "Altar Call": Is It Helpful or Harmful?"

 

[jbh28]

He would disagree, but he would be wrong because he believes he was elected before faith in Christ.

Correct.

He said his election was not based on his faith.

Correct

And all Calvinists I've seen deny that election is based on foreseen faith.

correct

Without faith you are outside Christ.

Correct and I agree

I was elected before the foundation of the world according to God's foreknowledge of my faith in Christ. And as Amy correctly pointed out, it is Jesus who is God's elect, I am only elect because when I believed I became a member of his body. This is very different from what Piper believes.

You were elected before the foundation of the world, which was before you had faith. So you were outside of faith at the time you were elected.

Election must be according to foreknowledge because no one is actually in Christ until they believe, otherwise you would be born saved.

Election doesn't have to be based on foreknowledge of faith for this to be true. Your statement is a non sequitur. Being elect doesn't mean you are saved.

Paul shows this in Romans 16:7 when he speaks of Andronicus and Junia which he said, "who also were in Christ BEFORE me"

So, no one is "in Christ" until they believe in time.

Agree 100% Nobody is in Christ until they believe!

Nevertheless, God can foreknow who will believe and elect them. But they are not elected outside of faith in Christ as Piper teaches.

Again you are contradicting your self. Were you in faith when you were elected? Piper doesn't believe that elected was based on foreseen faith. We all (Piper, you and me) believe that election was before the foundation of the world. We all (Piper, you and me) believe that election happened before we had faith in Christ.

btw, I agree that God knows who will believe and who won't believe (John 6:64) I just disagree that God based his election on this.

 

[Winman]

You were elected before the foundation of the world, which was before you had faith. So you were outside of faith at the time you were elected.

I disagree, God exists in the past, the present, and the future. In his eyes he elected me when I believed.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Which is= the present
Which was= the past
Which is to come= the future

God is outside time and in time. He can declare the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

1 Peter 1:2 says election is according to foreknowledge. Why is that difficult to understand? God elects who he forsees or knows will believe. To have foreknowledge of something is to know it before it actually takes place.

In John 6:64 it says Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and who should betray him. This is foreknowledge.

When Nathaniel met Jesus he asked, "Whence knowest thou me?", and Jesus answered, "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."

Notice before Nathaniel was called that Jesus saw him?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God can see who will believe, and calls them.

Election doesn't have to be based on foreknowledge of faith for this to be true. Your statement is a non sequitur. Being elect doesn't mean you are saved.

You have to be saved to be elect. God only chooses those he forsees "in him".

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are not actually "in him" before the foundation of the world, but before the foundation of the world God can know through foreknowledge who will be "in him" and this is who he chooses or elects.

Again you are contradicting your self. Were you in faith when you were elected? Piper doesn't believe that elected was based on foreseen faith. We all (Piper, you and me) believe that election was before the foundation of the world. We all (Piper, you and me) believe that election happened before we had faith in Christ.

I just explained this. But Piper believes something altogether different. Go back and read the first quote I showed. He said that he was elected or chosen to "become" a believer. This shows he believes a person is elected outside of faith in Christ, and that the effect of being chosen will be that he believes afterward.

I am not misrepresenting anything Piper said. Go back and read carefully and you will see for yourself.

Edit- Here is that quote from Piper.

Before the creation of the universe God thought of me. He fixed his gaze on me and chose me for himself. He did not choose me because I was already in Christ of my own doing, but that I might be in Christ. He did not choose me because he saw me as a believer, but so that I might become a believer. He did not choose me because I chose him, but so that I might choose him. He did not choose me because I was holy or good but so that I might become holy and good.

You see, Piper does not believe we are chosen "in Him". Oh, he may say he does, but that is impossible, because you have to believe to be "in Him". He clearly says God did not choose him because he "saw" me as a believer, but so that I might "become" a believer.

Read this stuff carefully and you will see I am not misrepresenting his statements at all.

 

[Jarthur001]

Amidst all these false charges, I thought some might like to see a real example.

By the way, Murray did not put together your "quote"; it is all over the web. As far as I can tell, the originator of the "quote" may be Reformed Baptist Fred G. Zaspel:

From a 1998 Zaspel publication entitled "The "Altar Call": Is It Helpful or Harmful?"

really?

how did this happen?

I have a copy of Murray's forgotten spurgeon from the 1970s and your book was printed in 1998?? Wow...now that is amazing.

But if history is right, you still did not lie.

Added...I don't have the date, because my book is falling apart and is missing the 1st 5-6 pages.

however, i do have the quote and its on page 102 and 103...

right now your track record is not so great. maybe I need to see if you are telling the truth on this....or can we just trust you?


Added #2

Lets be clear also...YOU do mislead, and I have tons of your post to prove it. Would you care to see just a few?

 

[Winman]

you did. You said it was outside of Christ, something of which Piper would disagree.

incorrect and Piper never said thatThe result of being chosen is that we will be saved, adopted, sanctified, glorified.

Not so, read for yourself

Everything I am and all I hope to be is rooted in God's freely choosing me. My faith, my hope, my work are not the ground of electing grace but only its effect. And so there is no ground for boasting except in God. And in the face of fear and loss of assurance and all my own defect, I speak this word of trust: "Who shall bring any charge against the Lord's elect!" (Romans 8:33).

Piper did not come out and directly say we are elected outside Christ, but that is exactly what he implies. He says his faith is not the "ground" of electing grace but only it's "effect". In other words, he was chosen outside faith (and therefore outside Christ) that he would "become a believer" afterward. Therefore he is saying you are elected outside Christ.

Just because Piper didn't directly say he was elected outside Christ doesn't mean a person can't determine this from what he did directly say.

 

[jbh28]

I disagree, God exists in the past, the present, and the future. In his eyes he elected me when I believed.

Well you contradicted yourself. Make up your mind. Either it happened before the foundation of the world(before you had faith) or not.

1 Peter 1:2 says election is according to foreknowledge. Why is that difficult to understand? God elects who he forsees or knows will believe. To have foreknowledge of something is to know it before it actually takes place.

It doesn't say that there. you are reading something into the text that isn't there.

In John 6:64 it says Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and who should betray him. This is foreknowledge.

Sure, but nothing about election there, nor that it was based on knowing who would believe.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God can see who will believe, and calls them.

The election is person. It doesn't say "what" but "whom" big difference. Here you read "would believe" into the text. It isn't there.

You have to be saved to be elect. God only chooses those he forsees "in him".

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are not actually "in him" before the foundation of the world, but before the foundation of the world God can know through foreknowledge who will be "in him" and this is who he chooses or elects.

you were elect when you were chosen. Basic definition of "elect." You were chosen before the foundation of the world. Whether this was based on foreseen faith or not, the election( you being elect) still happened before the foundation of the world.

I just explained this. But Piper believes something altogether different. Go back and read the first quote I showed. He said that he was elected or chosen to "become" a believer. This shows he believes a person is elected outside of faith in Christ, and that the effect of being chosen will be that he believes afterward.

And you claim to believe that too. you were chosen to become a believer based on God seeing that you would believe.

I am not misrepresenting anything Piper said. Go back and read carefully and you will see for yourself.

Edit- Here is that quote from Piper.



You see, Piper does not believe we are chosen "in Him". Oh, he may say he does, but that is impossible, because you have to believe to be "in Him". He clearly says God did not choose him because he "saw" me as a believer, but so that I might "become" a believer.

Read this stuff carefully and you will see I am not misrepresenting his statements at all.

No, you are misrepresenting him. The reason is that you have a different(and contradictory) definition of "in him." Saying that Piper denies in him is to misrepresent him. Piper does believe "in him." You believe that god chose you to become a believer because he saw you a believer.

 

[Winman]

Well you contradicted yourself. Make up your mind. Either it happened before the foundation of the world(before you had faith) or not.

You are playing games now. You understand exactly what I am saying, as do most Calvinists. Your creed clearly says (paraphrase) that election is never based upon something foreseen in a man.

Election is according to foreknowledge. That means election is according to something in the future that has not happened yet that God knows. We know we are elect "in Him". We know you cannot be "in Him" without faith.

If it is not faith that God foreknew, then what is it?

 

[R. Lawson]

Arminians (and those in between) must believe that there is a limit insofar as everyone will not end up in Heaven. It's not limited in scope, though. I'll use an example by Ryrie,

Let's say you have a BBQ. You prepare ten hamburgers because you invited ten people. However, only six show up. Provision was made for the ten, but only those who attended the BBQ ate the hamburgers.

Does that make sense?:wavey:

 

[Winman]

Arminians (and those in between) must believe that there is a limit insofar as everyone will not end up in Heaven. It's not limited in scope, though. I'll use an example by Ryrie,

Let's say you have a BBQ. You prepare ten hamburgers because you invited ten people. However, only six show up. Provision was made for the ten, but only those who attended the BBQ ate the hamburgers.

Does that make sense?:wavey:

Not only does it make sense, it is exactly what Jesus showed in Matthew 22.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

 

[jbh28]

You are playing games now. You understand exactly what I am saying, as do most Calvinists. Your creed clearly says (paraphrase) that election is never based upon something foreseen in a man.

Yes, that is correct, but I'm not playing games. I'm showing you a flaw in your argument. You said that election was before the foundation of the world. When this election took place, you were not saved. You were not born. You were not in Christ. You say it was based on foreseen faith and I say it wasn't. Ok, we interpret differently on the basis of election, but that doesn't change the fact that election took place before the foundation of the world. Therefore, we were elect before we were saved. We were elect to be saved. Again, this could, as you believe, be based on foreseen faith, but you were still elected before you were born.

Election is according to foreknowledge. That means election is according to something in the future that has not happened yet that God knows. We know we are elect "in Him". We know you cannot be "in Him" without faith.

You cannot be "in him" without faith. That is 100% true. And yes, God knows that you will believe. But that does not mean that God used that as the basis of his election. No where in Scripture are you told that God chose based on the foreknowledge of faith.

If it is not faith that God foreknew, then what is it?

Since Piper was mentioned, I'll quote something he said.

"Chosen According to the Foreknowledge of God"

Take the first phrase of verse 2. We are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." What is the basis of our election? Why did God choose me for his own? Or, to put it very personally, what will be your bottom-line answer to God when he asks, how is it that you came to believe on me and be saved while others did not?

Peter's answer is, "God foreknew me." Elect according to God's foreknowledge. But what does that mean? Does it mean that I really elected myself and then God knew that I would do that, so he chose me on the basis of my self-election. Is that what "God's foreknowledge" is?

I don't think so. Jesus said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Our choosing God is based on God's choosing us, not vice versa.

God's foreknowledge of his people is not merely his awareness of what they will do. His foreknowledge of his people is his acknowledgement of them as his, or his recognition of them. Let me give your two examples of this kind of knowing.

1. In Psalm 1:6 it says, "The Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish." This does not mean he is aware of the way of the righteous but ignorant of the way of the wicked. It means he acknowledges the way of the righteous. God's knowing of his people is his approving and acknowledging.

2. In Amos 3:2 God says to Israel, "You only have I known among all the families of the earth." This does not mean that God is only aware of the existence of Israel, but that he only acknowledges Israel as his own. He only recognizes Israel as his people.

This is the background for Peter's words in 1 Peter 2:9 when he says to the churches, "You are a chosen race." He doesn't mean that God looked for a people who already believed on him and then chose them for his own. It means that he sovereignly chose Abraham (Nehemiah 9:7), while he was still serving other gods (Joshua 24:2-3), to be the father of Israel. And that choosing is called "knowing" in Genesis 18:19: "In him all the nations will be blessed, for I have known him."

That's the background of 1 Peter 1:2: "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." Before the foundation of the world God knew who were his: he acknowledged us and bestowed on us the recognition of his own. That's the foundation of election. It is not owing to our birth or our achievements or our religion or our works or our virtue or our faith. It is owing to God's free acknowledgement of whom he will in the counsel of his wisdom.​

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...lection-the-role-of-the-father-and-the-spirit

 

[Jarthur001]

Jerome said...

I would not recommend persons under conviction of sin always to hide their souls' sorrows from their Christian friends. They might often be much helped if they would communicate their thoughts to those who have gone further on the road to heaven, and know more about Christ and the way of salvation. Yet, for the most part, a wounded conscience, like a wounded stag, delights to be alone that it may bleed in secret. It is very hard to get at a man under conviction of sin; he retires so far into himself that it is impossible to follow him. Ah, you poor mourners, I know how you try to conceal your pains. I will tell you one reason why you do not like to tell your mother, your sister, your brother. It is because you think your feelings are so strange: you suppose that nobody ever felt like you; you have the notion that you must be the worst person that ever lived, and therefore you are ashamed to tell what you feel for fear your friends should scout you out of their society.

What was left out...

Some in this place, perhaps, have lately been aroused to a consciousness of guilt before God ; but one thing they have not done, they have never made confession of their sin. They feel the burden of it in a measure, and they will feel it more, but as yet they have kept their grief to themselves: neither to God nor man have they poured out their souls. To speak to our fellow-men about our heart troubles is comparatively of little use, and yet I would not recommend persons under conviction of sin always to hide their souls' sorrows from their Christian friends. They might often be much helped if they would communicate their thoughts to those who have gone further on the road to heaven, and know more about Christ and the way of salvation. Yet, for the most part, a wounded conscience, like a wounded stag, delights to be alone that it may bleed in secret. It is very hard to get at a man under conviction of sin; he retires so far into himself that it is impossible to follow him. Ah, you poor mourners, I know how you try to conceal your pains.

 

[Winman]

Jbh28

Perhaps you have not been following the conversation, that article confirms what I have been saying. Piper says we are not chosen because of our faith, he believes he is chosen outside Christ. No one can be in Christ until they believe on him.

Piper said we are not chosen because we believe (in Christ), he said we are chosen to believe (outside Christ).

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.

But what you fail to grasp is that we are chosen "in him", therefore we must be believers to be chosen.

That is simple, but I don't think you want to accept it.

 

[jbh28]

Jbh28

Perhaps you have not been following the conversation, that article confirms what I have been saying. Piper says we are not chosen because of our faith, he believes he is chosen outside Christ. No one can be in Christ until they believe on him.

Perhaps you have not been following me either. Of course we were chosen when we were outside of Christ. We were chosen before the foundation of the world, way before we were in Christ. Even you said you believed that we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Piper said we are not chosen because we believe (in Christ), he said we are chosen to believe (outside Christ).

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.

But what you fail to grasp is that we are chosen "in him", therefore we must be believers to be chosen.

That is simple, but I don't think you want to accept it.

Nobody was a believer when we were chosen. Are you going to take back your statement that we were chosen before the foundation of the world? To be chosen as already a believer doesn't even make sense. Our election was in Christ, we were not in Christ. All of Salvation is in Christ. The election, redemption and preservation(Ephesians 1).

So either you believe what the Bible teaches(we were chosen before the foundation of the world, meaning we were chosen before we were in Christ) or you don't. Which of course means you misspoke while ago.

When were we chosen? before the foundation of the world.
Were you saved when you were chosen? Only if you were saved before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him."

"According as he hath chosen us"
God the Father does the choosing. We are the ones that have been chosen. Those that are in Christ or will be in Christ. The election is of people("us").

"in him"
This election only applies to those in Christ by faith in Jesus Christ. Those outside of Christ cannot claim this blessing until they are in Christ. Every part of salvation is in Christ.

"before the foundation of the world"
The election was done before the foundation of the world. This was before anyone was ever born or of course saved.

"that we should be holy and without blame before him."
Election is more than just election to our initial salvation experience. It is to be holy and blameless before God. This can only happen though the imputation of Christ righteousness.