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Unmarried Youth Pastor, OK??

Rufus_1611

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
Sure it's right, if you understand what it means to be the husband of one wife. That appears to be the only problem here.
I do understand. In order to be the husband of one wife, one must be a husband and that husband must have a wife, making them...married.

I have not said what the Bible says is wrong. I have said what you say is wrong becaus you have wrongly understood the text and I have shown you why.

Pastor Larry said:
I think the Bible is Holy. But the fact is that God said "one woman man." I think we need to agree with God.
Not once does the expression "one woman man" appear in the my Bible. If you say "God said, One woman man" then my Bible would have to be wrong in order for you to be right.

So do I, but that has nothing to do with this. The topic was authority, and you said that Strong's was my authority (which is false since I don't use Strong's) and I pointed out that your authority is the lexical choice not of Strong but of people 400 years ago. That is not about fruit.
I did not say that Strong's was your authority.

Christ was not married. Your argument that he is the husband of one wife is the same argument that Catholics have used to prevent their priests from being married ... saying they are to be married to the church. Furthermore, the elder is an undershepherd where Christ is the chief shepherd.
Jesus Christ is the bridegroom of one wife.

You just believe the wrong thing on this Rufus.
Here I stand, until dissuaded otherwise by an effective argument and thus far, none have been forthcoming.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I do understand. In order to be the husband of one wife, one must be a husband and that husband must have a wife, making them...married.
You don't understand. The phrase is referring to sexual purity. As I have pointed out, your interpretation disqualifies the Lord of the church and her greatest missionary, it disqualifies men whose wives have died, and it qualifies men who have been sexually unfaithful but have not divorced. That is clear evidence that you are wrong.

Not once does the expression "one woman man" appear in the my Bible. If you say "God said, One woman man" then my Bible would have to be wrong in order for you to be right.
The phrase "husband of one wife" is the translation of teh phrase "one woman man." Have can you have such a dogmatic position when you do not even know what it says?

I did not say that Strong's was your authority.
You said to Tim, "You are establishing that your authority is the Strong's concordance." That sounds a lot like you are saying that those who agree with Tim are making STrong's their authority. I doubt your response would have been any different if I had appealed to BAGD, or LSJ, or MM.

Jesus Christ is the bridegroom of one wife.
Not in the terms spoken of in 1 Tim 3:2, and the wedding has not yet taken place as Rev 19 tells us.

Here I stand, until dissuaded otherwise by an effective argument and thus far, none have been forthcoming.
Your judgment is inadequate. It has been shown, both by exegesis and application that your view is wrong.

Here are some notes that will further answer your position and show your position to be incorrect.
This phrase in the list has caused perhaps as much controversy as any other. It has been given essentially five interpretations.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The Wife is the Church

An overseer is to have only one wife, the church. He is not to be married to any other. This is the traditional Roman Catholic view that forbids married clergy. The problem with this view is that it is a very forced use of the phrase. Furthermore, it makes the false teachers who “forbid marriage” in 4:3 right to forbid marriage in certain cases.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Prohibition against polygamy

This phrase prevents the multiplication of wives. Against this view is the fact that polygamy was against Roman law. If a person was following the law as Paul elsewhere commands (Rom 13) he is forbidding something that would never take place. Furthermore, it is forbidden by Scripture (1 Cor 7:2). A person involved in polygamy is involved in immorality. Therefore, it becomes a moot command, having no relevance for the church. There is the opposite phrase used in 5:9 (the wife of one husband). It obviously is not arguing against polyandry and therefore, this phrase should be read in that light as well.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Prohibition against remarriage after death

This view is summed up by saying “Only one wife in a lifetime.” This is the view taken in some extrabiblical literature. However, such a view directly contradicts Paul’s writing elsewhere. Rom 7:1-3 teaches that death ends a marriage contract (cf. 1 Cor 7:39). 1 Tim 5:14, Paul commands younger widows to remarry. It is presumable that he would include men in that command as well.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Prohibition against unmarried overseers

This is based on the use of necessity (dei). Some say this would counter the false teacher’s commands not to marry. However, the command specifically says “one wife” not “a wife.” In addition, those who hold this view do not say that verse four demands children, only that it says something about children, should the overseer have them. Furthermore, it seems to contradict Matt 19:12 where it says that only some will be eunuchs for the kingdom of God. It does not imply that all will be or that some must be, simply that some will be. Furthermore, it would have disqualified Paul from being a pastor.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Prohibition involving unlawful divorce and including marital infidelity

Divorce was a problem in the first century as indicated by other passages and extrabiblical literature. It was a reality in the church of the day. Furthermore, the grammatical construction (anarthrous) seems to focus on the character of the person in view. Therefore, it seems to carry the idea of a “one woman man,” one who is faithful to his wife. Most people (though not all) see two instances of “legitimate divorce” in the NT. One for immorality on the part of the spouse (Matt 19:1-12) and the other for desertion by an unbeliever (1 Cor 7). In such cases, most see the innocent party is free to remarry. With this view, a divorced person is not necessarily disqualified from the ministry on the basis of his divorce. He may have been divorced (possibly*—[note the strong qualifier]—possibly even at fault) but since established a track record of a good marriage as a one-woman man (perhaps 20-30 years). He may still be qualified as a one-woman man. However, the “above reproach” may never be regained in such a case. It is impossible to be dogmatic I believe. We can be dogmatic that marital faithfulness is an absolute must for the overseer.

I do believe the phrase is speaking of a character of life where one is faithful and pure in his relationship with his wife. This is an awkward way to say “no divorce.” All the other characteristics refer to the current state of a man’s life. Why not this one?
 

James_Newman

New Member
One Woman Man is an album by American country music artist George Jones. This album was released on February 28, 1989 on the Epic Records. This was Jones' final album with producer Billy Sherrill.

Track List

  1. I'm a One Woman Man (2:17)
  2. My Baby's Gone (3:24)
  3. Don't You Ever Get Tired (Of Hurting Me) (2:46)
  4. Burning Bridges (2:40)
  5. The King Is Gone (So Are You) (3:22)
  6. Radio Lover (3:27)
  7. A Place in the Country (4:02)
  8. Just Out of Reach (2:59)
  9. Writing on the Wall (2:55)
  10. Pretty Little Lady from Beaumont Texas (2:36)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Woman_Man
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
You don't understand. The phrase is referring to sexual purity.
No it isn't. It's dealing with the fact a man is the spiritual leader of the home. This is required to be a spiritual leader of the Church, as verse 5 so plainly states. Verse 5 has nothing to do with sexuality at all.
The phrase "husband of one wife" is the translation of teh phrase "one woman man." Have can you have such a dogmatic position when you do not even know what it says?
Context dictates from verse 5 that this has nothing to do with dating one woman at a time. It's clearly dealing with marriage...so the "one woman man" debate is really pointless, as scriptural context shows it's referring to marriage...as "ruling their family well" makes no sense in any other capacity. A family is NOT an individual, never has been referred to that in the Bible, and by plain definition doesn't allow for that interpretation.
 
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gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Rufus_1611 said:
Nowhere in the English Holy Bible does it say "one woman man". There's not much more to dialogue about on this one, as it is apparent we are not reading from the same book.

You cannot translate without interpretation. Interpretation happens in light of its historical context.

There is no dialog when interpreted in light of its historical context.

The problem is that the KJV does not fit within the context of the Paul's writings nor of scripture.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
...You said to Tim, "You are establishing that your authority is the Strong's concordance." That sounds a lot like you are saying that those who agree with Tim are making STrong's their authority. I doubt your response would have been any different if I had appealed to BAGD, or LSJ, or MM....

In this issue, you are applying the same technique as you do to the Bible.

Pastor_Larry said:
So do I, but that has nothing to do with this. The topic was authority, and you said that Strong's was my authority (which is false since I don't use Strong's) and I pointed out that your authority is the lexical choice not of Strong but of people 400 years ago. That is not about fruit.
I did not say that your authority was Strong's and you claimed I was in error to have done so, rather than admitting your error, you come back and give your interpretation of a principle as though that changes the lie into a truth. The same principle applies to your statement that the Bible says "one woman man". No Bible says this, not even the MVs...

1 Timothy 3:2
  • NASB - "...must be... the husband of one wife..."
  • Amplified - "...must be...the husband of one wife..."
  • Green's Literal Translation - "behooves...the husband of one wife..."
  • NIV - "...must be...the husband of but one wife..."
  • HCSB - "...must be...the husband of one wife..."
  • NLT - "...must be...faithful to his wife..."
  • ERV - "...must be...the husband of one wife..."
  • ESV - "...must be...the husband of one wife..."
  • CEV - "...must be...faithful in marriage..."
  • Message - "...must be...committed to his wife..."
  • NKJV - "...must be...the husband of one wife..."
  • Douay Rheims - "...behoveth...the husband of one wife..."
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
gb93433 said:
You cannot translate without interpretation. Interpretation happens in light of its historical context.

There is no dialog when interpreted in light of its historical context.

The problem is that the KJV does not fit within the context of the Paul's writings nor of scripture.

Very well. Which Bible does?
 

saturneptune

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
Not when you understand what one woman man means.
Pastor Larry,
This is one of those rare occasions that I am asking you questions of inqury rather than prove a debate point. (ie Bush or communion etc). The exact meaning of this particular qualification for pastor has never been crystal clear to me. These questions are asked for pure understanding on my part and thanks in advance.

Your points about the "one woman man" extending to sexual purity has a lot of merit to me. The Lord equated adultry and other sexual sins to lusting in the mind, gazing, imagining, etc. With this in mind, where do you draw the line for being qualified to be pastor based on sexual purity, because if you bring in the thought process, the sexual impurity in the mind, one cannot help but wonder who is qualified? Do you draw the line at the physical act?

Can a person ever be pastor in his life again if divorced for any reason other than death and adultry on the part of his wife?

Can a person be a pastor if he is married to a woman who is divorced, although he has not been divorced?

Can a man who was unfaithful (physically) to his wife, yet remained married, they worked it out and restored the marriage, is he qualified to be pastor after a period of time?

Your point about sexual purity for the basis is in line with the teaching of the Lord about lusting in the mind.

One last question, do you think the standards for pastor, deacon, and other leadership positions are held to the same degree?

Thanks again for your time, and see you back in the political room soon, I am sure.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I will hit a few more here and then bow out.

No it isn't. It's dealing with the fact a man is the spiritual leader of the home. This is required to be a spiritual leader of the Church, as verse 5 so plainly states. Verse 5 has nothing to do with sexuality at all.
V. 5 isn’t what I am discussing. But v. 5 is about management skills. Again, it doesn’t require he have children. It requires that he be able to manage, and the evidence of that is that he does it. Your position would prevent a man who does not have children from being a pastor. He may not have any control over that.

Context dictates from verse 5 that this has nothing to do with dating one woman at a time. It's clearly dealing with marriage...so the "one woman man" debate is really pointless, as scriptural context shows it's referring to marriage...as "ruling their family well" makes no sense in any other capacity. A family is NOT an individual, never has been referred to that in the Bible, and by plain definition doesn't allow for that interpretation.
You are confusing things here. V. 5 is about management ability. V. 3 is about sexual integrity.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I did not say that your authority was Strong's and you claimed I was in error to have done so, rather than admitting your error, you come back and give your interpretation of a principle as though that changes the lie into a truth.
Tim made my point by appealing to Strong's. You said that was his authority. On that basis, it is reasonable to assume that you would make that accusation about anyone who does what Tim did, appealing to an original language lexicon. How is that hard for you to understand?

The same principle applies to your statement that the Bible says "one woman man". No Bible says this, not even the MVs...
All of which mean exactly what I said: a man of sexual integrity and faithfulness.

If you believe that this means a man must be married, then you must deal with the objections I have pointed out. So far, you have not.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
V. 5 isn’t what I am discussing. But v. 5 is about management skills. Again, it doesn’t require he have children. It requires that he be able to manage, and the evidence of that is that he does it. Your position would prevent a man who does not have children from being a pastor. He may not have any control over that.
Partly correct. It is dealing with management...managing one's family. One cannot manage one's family without a family. Regardless if one has children, a husband and wife constitute a family. Also, if a man's wife dies, they still have shown the scriptural requirement of managing their household well. Neither instance would prevent a man from being a pastor. Only being single, having never been married or ever having shown the ability to manage their household well would be prevention from having a pastoral role.
You are confusing things here. V. 5 is about management ability. V. 3 is about sexual integrity.
No, verse 5 puts verses 3 and 4 in the proper context needed.
 
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Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
This is one of those rare occasions that I am asking you questions of inqury rather than prove a debate point.
We out not to make these occasions so rare on the BB. It is always easier to undersatnd someone's position when you ask about it for the sake of understanding rather than for the sake of winning ...

Your points about the "one woman man" extending to sexual purity has a lot of merit to me. The Lord equated adultry and other sexual sins to lusting in the mind, gazing, imagining, etc. With this in mind, where do you draw the line for being qualified to be pastor based on sexual purity, because if you bring in the thought process, the sexual impurity in the mind, one cannot help but wonder who is qualified? Do you draw the line at the physical act?
That's tough. I think there is no easy answer. The physical act is surely a disqualifier. Other things have to do with the public nature of it to some degree. So there is no easy answer A man who looks at porn is disqualified, though it might be a struggle so I would not say that one time private that no one knows about is a deal breaker. A pattern is.

Can a person ever be pastor in his life again if divorced for any reason other than death and adultry on the part of his wife?
I would tend to say yes, possibly, but probably unlikely. A man married and divorced at 20, who then gets saved and has a thirty year track record of faithfulnes and integrity might be qualified at 50. So there is no easy answer. The qualifications refer to the current state of a man's life.

Can a person be a pastor if he is married to a woman who is divorced, although he has not been divorced?
Same as above. Again, it depends on the circumstances.

Can a man who was unfaithful (physically) to his wife, yet remained married, they worked it out and restored the marriage, is he qualified to be pastor after a period of time?
Some as above, perhaps after a long time of faithfulness, but likely never.

One last question, do you think the standards for pastor, deacon, and other leadership positions are held to the same degree?
Depends on what you mean by leadership positions. A nursery team leader is not held to necessarily the same standards as a pastor. I think you want to evaluate the position and person on an individual basis.

I have tried to be quick and short here since dinner is waiting. If you desire clarification, I will check back.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
It is dealing with management...managing one's family. One cannot manage one's family without a family.
But he can't be guilty of a having an out of control family if he doesn't have one.

Regardless if one has children, a husband and wife constitute a family.
But that's not what the text says. If you think he must have a wife, then you must also believe he must have kids. Both are clearly stated.

Also, if a man's wife dies, they still have shown the scriptural requirement of managing their household well. Neither instance would prevent a man from being a pastor.
But he is not the husband of one wife. He is single.

Only being single, having never been married or ever having shown the ability to manage their household well would prevention from a pastoral role.
There are many other qualifications such as self-controlled, able to teach etc.

No, verse 5 puts verses 3 and 4 in the proper context needed.
But it's talking about two different things.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
Tim made my point by appealing to Strong's. You said that was his authority. On that basis, it is reasonable to assume that you would make that accusation about anyone who does what Tim did, appealing to an original language lexicon. How is that hard for you to understand?
That's not hard for me to understand. However, that is not what you said.

Pastor Larry said:
The topic was authority, and you said that Strong's was my authority (which is false since I don't use Strong's)

I did not say that Strong's was your authority. The statement that you do not use Strong's was not a false statement as I did not make that statement. Are you familiar with the difference between a truth and a lie, is that hard for you to understand?

All of which mean exactly what I said: a man of sexual integrity and faithfulness.

If you believe that this means a man must be married, then you must deal with the objections I have pointed out. So far, you have not.
Your objections are filled with error, just as the above objection was.

Bottom-line, the Bible says a bishop must be the husband of one wife. You can not be the husband of one wife without being married. We can know that a bishop must be married by the verse alone and we can know this when taken in context, as Webdog has repeatedly noted. There is no such thing as a family of one, you can not have your children in subjection with all gravity if you don't have children, you may not have children if you do not have a wife. A single man who is not wed, who does not have children is a novice, for he can not have experience in ruling his own house if he has no one to rule over and thus, how shall he take care of the church of God?

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." - 1 Timothy 3:2-6​
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
But he can't be guilty of a having an out of control family if he doesn't have one.
...and without a family to manage, he is disqualified.
But that's not what the text says. If you think he must have a wife, then you must also believe he must have kids. Both are clearly stated.
How are both stated? It only states that he is to manage his family well...kids or not. It does not state "must be the husband of one wife...must have children".
But he is not the husband of one wife. He is single.
If he was the husband of one wife at appointment...so?
But it's talking about two different things.
...maybe to you it is, but in the context of the chapter it is not.
 

rbell

Active Member
webdog said:
How are both stated? It only states that he is to manage his family well...kids or not. It does not state "must be the husband of one wife...must have children".

But it refers to "children" and his controlling them.

In order to be consistent, you must insist that not only must he be married, but that he must have more than one child.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
rbell said:
But it refers to "children" and his controlling them.

In order to be consistent, you must insist that not only must he be married, but that he must have more than one child.
yes it does refer to children...but the context is family, not who makes up the family. It was a given in those times one would have children, it was the culture. It was unorthodox and abnormal not to have them. It still is not saying one must have children...but must manage those you do have.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
webdog said:
yes it does refer to children...but the context is family, not who makes up the family. It was a given in those times one would have children, it was the culture. It was unorthodox and abnormal not to have them. It still is not saying one must have children...but must manage those you do have.

Just like Peter, Jesus, and Paul.
 
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