Unqualified Rhetoric

[Reformed]

As one looks back over history since the creation of the Calvinism doctrine, has this doctrine brought peace and harmony to the body of Christ? Or has it caused great strife and division? The answer should teach us all something.

Boy. There really has been a lot of strife and division since Genesis 3.

 

[Reformed]

As one looks back over history since the creation of the Calvinism doctrine, has this doctrine brought peace and harmony to the body of Christ? Or has it caused great strife and division? The answer should teach us all something.

OK. I was obviously being cheeky in my last post.

Are you trying to separate Calvinism from the Continental, English, and Scottish Reformations? You are a student of church history, right? You do know that the Reformation was a period of intense turmoil that had less to do with Calvinism than justification by faith and separation from Rome?

Thank you for the softball.

 

[Rippon]

Wherever the spread of Calvinism went from Geneva onward there also went the spread of persecution, just as Calvin enacted in his state-church, executing some, banishing others who did not conform to his creed.

Christians should not lie. You are lying DHK.

McGrath :Life Of Calvin

"The image of Calvin as 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history." (p.109)

Otto Scott :The Great Christian Revolution

"Calvin never ruled Geneva. The city was not a totalitarian society, but a Republic, with elections and dissent. Calvin held no civil office, could neither arrest nor punish any citizen, appoint or dismiss any official. To argue that his eloquence and logic constituted tyranny is to invent a new standard." (p.57)

Bernard Cottret :Calvin:A Biography

"Geneva, in fact, was never a theocracy...the ministry and the magistracy, were never one and the same...To sum up, Calvin did not take over the state; he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatolla.(p.159)

" The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties; it had only limited doctrinal competence."(p.166)

"We must avoid the simplistic idea of a religious reformation controlling the civil power to erect a theocratic, indeed fundamentalist state. It fact, it was almost the opposite." (p.114)

Schaff

"The Consistory Court...could only use the spiritual sword, and had nothing to do with civil and temporal punishment, which belonged exclusively to the Council."

"It is a mistake, therefore, to call him the head of the Republic, except in a purely intellectual and moral sense."

Basil Hall

"If Calvin had dictatorial control over Genevan affairs,how is it that records of Geneva show him plainly to have been the servant of its Council which on many occasions rejected out of hand Calvin's wishes...To call Calvin the 'dictator of a theocracy' is, in view of the evidence, mere phrase-making prejudice."

Francois Wendel :Calvin

"Calvin not only never succeeded in putting the Genevan Magistracy under the tutelage of the Church; he never even announced the need for such a tutelage, which is precisely what characterizes a genuinely theocratic system" (p.309)

 

[Reformed]

Christians should not lie. You are lying DHK.

McGrath :Life Of Calvin

"The image of Calvin as 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history." (p.109)

Otto Scott :The Great Christian Revolution

"Calvin never ruled Geneva. The city was not a totalitarian society, but a Republic, with elections and dissent. Calvin held no civil office, could neither arrest nor punish any citizen, appoint or dismiss any official. To argue that his eloquence and logic constituted tyranny is to invent a new standard." (p.57)

Bernard Cottret :Calvin:A Biography

"Geneva, in fact, was never a theocracy...the ministry and the magistracy, were never one and the same...To sum up, Calvin did not take over the state; he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatolla. The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties; it had only limited doctrinal competence."(p.159)

Schaff

"The Consistory Court...could only use the spiritual sword, and had nothing to do with civil and temporal punishment, which belonged exclusively to the Council."

"It is a mistake, therefore, to call him the head of the Republic, except in a purely intellectual and moral sense."

Basil Hall

"If Calvin had dictatorial control over Genevan affairs,how is it that records of Geneva show him plainly to have been the servant of its Council which on many occasions rejected out of hand Calvin's wishes...To call Calvin the 'dictator of a theocracy' is, in view of the evidence, mere phrase-making prejudice."

Francois Wendel :Calvin

"Calvin not only never succeeded in putting the Genevan Magistracy under the tutelage of the Church; he never even announced the need for such a tutelage, which is precisely what characterizes a genuinely theocratic system" (p.309)

There you go again, using fact in order to displace myth. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Iconoclast]

There you go again, using fact in order to displace myth. You should be ashamed of yourself.

:wavey::laugh::thumbsup::wavey: Rippon nails DHK each and everytime, but DHK maintains such falsehoods.

 

[Reformed]

:wavey::laugh::thumbsup::wavey: Rippon nails DHK each and everytime, but DHK maintains such falsehoods.

Some of those in the Synergist camp believe that attaching Calvinists to Calvin makes their attacks convincing. The only thing it does it display their woeful ignorance of Calvin, the continental Reformation, and church history in general. Calvin was kicked out of Geneva at one point. When he returned he was constantly on pins and needles, waiting to be arrested and potentially martyred.

It would help if these critics did a serious study of the European political and religious climate during the early, formative years of the Reformation. These critics like to think that Calvinism was the driving force behind everything. That could not be further from the truth. As I told steaver, the departure from Roman orthodoxy was the big news of the day, with justification by faith alone being the fulcrum of Rome's incessant attacks. It was not until the Reformation had been almost 100 years old that TULIP was debated.

But even if Calvin was guilty as accused in regards to Servetus, what does that have to do with Reformed theology? Calvin was just one man out of many who labored in the scriptures at that time. But alas, they will never stop because their arguments lack biblical support.

 

[Rippon]

J. I. Packer

"Yet all serious Calvin-scholars now know that the Calvin of legend --the slobbering ogre, the egotistical fanatic, the doctrinaire misanthrope, the inhuman dictator with a devilish god --is a figure of fancy --not fact. The real Calvin was not like that, nor was his theology the monstrous and mis-shapen thing that the legendary image would suggest."

 

[Reformed]

The city [Geneva] had wanted Reformation, but not that much, and the more the Reformers started going about it, the more their relationship with the city council was strained. One of the preachers dared to list a few of the city's sins, referring to some of the Genevan magistrates as 'drunkards'. Such behaviour is, obviously, sheer madness for anyone who wants to be popular: he was swiftly imprisoned. Then Calvin and Farel were ordered to use the old-style wafer-bread that left no sacrilegious crumbs in Communion. They refused and were thus banned from preaching! Naturally, they both violated the ban, upon which they were given three days to leave the city. And so, in 1538, less than two years after arriving, Calvin found himself exiled once again. ~ The Unquenchable Flame: Discovering the Heart of the Reformation, Michael Reeves, 2009, Inter-Varsity Press

 

[Iconoclast]

Some of those in the Synergist camp believe that attaching Calvinists to Calvin makes their attacks convincing. The only thing it does it display their woeful ignorance of Calvin, the continental Reformation, and church history in general. Calvin was kicked out of Geneva at one point. When he returned he was constantly on pins and needles, waiting to be arrested and potentially martyred.

It would help if these critics did a serious study of the European political and religious climate during the early, formative years of the Reformation. These critics like to think that Calvinism was the driving force behind everything. That could not be further from the truth. As I told steaver, the departure from Roman orthodoxy was the big news of the day, with justification by faith alone being the fulcrum of Rome's incessant attacks. It was not until the Reformation had been almost 100 years old that TULIP was debated.

But even if Calvin was guilty as accused in regards to Servetus, what does that have to do with Reformed theology? Calvin was just one man out of many who labored in the scriptures at that time. But alas, they will never stop because their arguments lack biblical support.[/QUOTE]

Sadly this is the key. I have encountered several who are full of emotion , but light on scripture, so they have to deflect to side issues, distractions and these web sites which are set against God's truth.
Because we live at a time where many are on cruise control and not really sitting under sound teaching, they settle for storytellers, entertainment, public speaking, and other forms of compromise...we see the result.

 

[DHK]

There you go again, using fact in order to displace myth. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, there are loyal Calvinists and their sympathizers that are willing to turn a blind eye to history, just as Catholic historians revise history as well. Did you know that in some schools the Holocaust is denied? All kinds of people change, revise, deny history.

Perhaps you should read Cottret, a university professor who wrote a biography of Calvin.
Bernard Cottrett has published a book entitled, “Calvin: A Biography,” (Eerdmans Pub. Company Grand Rapids, Michigan, copyright 2000).

Cottret gives a favorable portrayal of Calvin. In the book he gives credit to Calvin personally for no less than 38 documented executions. He documents the dates of each of John Calvin’s despicable acts and shows that Calvin’s methods included imprisonment, torture, and execution by beheading and by burning at the stake.
You need to read outside your own little clique of Calvinists.

 

[Reformed]

Sadly this is the key. I have encountered several who are full of emotion , but light on scripture, so they have to deflect to side issues, distractions and these web sites which are set against God's truth.
Because we live at a time where many are on cruise control and not really sitting under sound teaching, they settle for storytellers, entertainment, public speaking, and other forms of compromise...we see the result.

Correct. This is what happens when you get your eyes on people instead of biblical truth.

 

[Rippon]

Bernard Cottret :Calvin:A Biography

"Geneva, in fact, was never a theocracy...the ministry and the magistracy, were never one and the same...To sum up, Calvin did not take over the state; he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatolla.(p.159)

" The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties; it had only limited doctrinal competence."(p.166)

"We must avoid the simplistic idea of a religious reformation controlling the civil power to erect a theocratic, indeed fundamentalist state. It fact, it was almost the opposite." (p.114)
DHK, your eyes have clouded over. If you respect Cottret's book you have to acknowledge the above quotes which puts the truth square to you.

 

[DHK]

Bernard Cottret :Calvin:A Biography

"Geneva, in fact, was never a theocracy...the ministry and the magistracy, were never one and the same...To sum up, Calvin did not take over the state; he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatolla.(p.159)

" The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties; it had only limited doctrinal competence."(p.166)

"We must avoid the simplistic idea of a religious reformation controlling the civil power to erect a theocratic, indeed fundamentalist state. It fact, it was almost the opposite." (p.114)
DHK, your eyes have clouded over. If you respect Cottret's book you have to acknowledge the above quotes which puts the truth square to you.

I am sure you are selectively quoting.
Here this time I will do the homework for you:

Woe to those who would dare to disagree with the young doctor! He would call his adversaries offensive names: fools, crazy, frenetic, sophists, drunk, mad, sacrilegious, sycophants, wild beasts, atheists and swine, among other epithets.
“For years people were obliged to report in minute detail every word spoken against him and the doctrine of predestination, with which he identified himself to such a degree that to speak against the dogma became as dangerous as to speak against him. The poor were dragged to prisons, scourged, reviled, obliged to walk in the streets barefoot wearing a penitential habit and carrying a torch to expiate for what Calvin arbitrarily called blasphemies.”(4)
Multiple death sentences are also reported by this same Protestant scholar, Galiffé, who delved into the records of that time. Describing a short period of Calvin’s rule he says, “One counts 30 executions of men and 28 of women, subdivided by method of death: 13 persons hanged, 10 beheaded, 55 quartered, 35 burned alive after being tortured.”(9)

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e034rpCalvin_Franca05.htm

The great declaration of the Reformation was "Sola Scriptura," Scripture Alone. To this we give a hearty amen. But for John Calvin it clearly was not Scripture alone. It was Scripture plus some key leftovers of the Roman Catholic Church: notably: infant baptism, a state church, and persecution of those who did not fall into line. As H.R Pike writes, "It was Scripture plus the sword of the state, hangings, burning at the stake, prison, tortures..." (The Other Side of John Calvin, p. 54).
Below is evidence that this is not overstatement!

Most who call themselves Calvinist say very little about the famous Reformer having a persecuting side. This reflects a selective silence that began quite early. We are greatly indebted to John Foxe and his Book of Martyrs for detailing the terrible atrocities meted out by Papal Rome. But Foxe, a contemporary and friend of Calvin (he outlived Calvin by 23 years), gives not one paragraph to the many persecutions that took place at Calvin's Geneva and elsewhere across Europe. Only those who suffered at the hand of Rome are mentioned (Pike, n.122).

That Rome's crimes were much greater in magnitude does not excuse this silence concerning the considerable persecution Protestants meted out. Nor can we accept the excuse that "Calvin's actions must be seen in light of the standards of that age". Regardless of the age, the New Testament is the standard against which actions are judged!

http://www.a-voice.org/tidbits/calvinp.htm

On March 7, 1545, Two women were executed by burning at the stake of the crime of spreading the plague. Cottret wrote that “. . . Calvin humanely interceded the same day to keep the poisoners from being forced to languish in prison. The Council followed this happy directive and urged the executioner henceforth to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors."19 Calvin’s actions are a testimony to his lack of character and warped sense of compassion.

The executions continued unabated and those who refused to confess were tortured skillfully in a way that would avoid killing them using a strappado. The strappado is a form of torture in which the victim is hung in the air by the wrists with their arms tied behind their back. During this time, two people who were accused sorcerers were decapitated. It was said they composed a plaster of grease and other villainous things that caused people to die. A number of the victims committed suicide to end their torture. One woman who was handcuffed to keep her from taking her life threw herself out of a window to escape the torture. John Calvin not only condoned, but approved of this hideous superstitious torment. Clearly Calvin was ruled by an irrational superstition that has its roots in paganism.

http://bible-truth.org/IsCalvinismBiblical.html
This last link is an excellent pamphlet on Calvinism addressing the errors of others as well. Its author is Cooper P. Abrams III, a pastor of an IFB church.

 

[steaver]

i am sure you are selectively quoting.
Here this time i will do the homework for you:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e034rpcalvin_franca05.htm


http://www.a-voice.org/tidbits/calvinp.htm


http://bible-truth.org/iscalvinismbiblical.html
this last link is an excellent pamphlet on calvinism addressing the errors of others as well. Its author is cooper p. Abrams iii, a pastor of an ifb church.

who in their right mind would ever want to proudly declare they are calvinist?!!!!!!!!!!! Sick!! And this man is hailed as having the holy spirit teach him the mechanics of election through the word???

 

[Rippon]

I am sure you are selectively quoting.

I have quoted Cottret because he affirms what all honest Church historians and John Calvin scholars have.

Here this time I will do the homework for you:

Your "homework" is not from Cottret.

The folks you cite are not scholars (as is evident from their poor English). You rely on two-bit hacks DHK. I have quoted more than two dozen Church scholars and John Calvin specialists in the past. They are uniform in stating the facts of Calvin's life. Your sources are disgraceful.

You are stubborn in the extreme and dishonest to boot. You need to value the truth. As a professing Christian and a moderator on a Christian forum you need to go back to the basics of the faith you claim.

 

[DHK]

I have quoted Cottret because he affirms what all honest Church historians and John Calvin scholars have.

Your "homework" is not from Cottret.

The folks you cite are not scholars (as is evident from their poor English). You rely on two-bit hacks DHK. I have quoted more than two dozen Church scholars and John Calvin specialists in the past. They are uniform in stating the facts of Calvin's life. Your sources are disgraceful.

You are stubborn in the extreme and dishonest to boot. You need to value the truth. As a professing Christian and a moderator on a Christian forum you need to go back to the basics of the faith you claim.

Cooper Abrahams III is a well respected pastor whose research is well done.
He quotes from Cottret, or did you not notice that:

Cottret wrote that “. . . Calvin humanely interceded the same day to keep the poisoners from being forced to languish in prison. The Council followed this happy directive and urged the executioner henceforth to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors."

His booklet is well worth the reading in its entirety.

 

[thatbrian]

Bub you have not been around here long enough. The snide, belittling, arrogant comments come from cals around here. More times than not when they run out of arguments and have nothing else they just say "God has not given you the wisdom to understand the doctrines of grace yet". Or they will say that you just do not understand.

I will tell you like I do other newbies. Stick around and build some relationships before you draw one sided conclusions. At least then people will think you actually know what your talking about.

My comments are based on what I have witnessed so far, and if you read back a bit, you'll see that my strongest criticism was of someone from "my side". If I see a Calvinist act as you say, I'm not afraid to speak up because if there were more respect around here there could be more meaningful debate. Speaking of the former, the name is Brian, referring to me as "Bub" just helps prove my point.

 

[robustheologian]

...if there were more respect around here there could be more meaningful debate. Speaking of the former, the name is Brian, referring to me as "Bub" just helps prove my point.

Lol yeah I thought that when I saw that too....it's hard to see respect in trying to put someone new "in their place" and calling them "Bub".

 

[Rippon]

Cooper Abrahams III is a well respected pastor whose research is well done.

One has to carefully consider when you praise an author. His "research" is an absurd patchwork of lies and deliberate slander.

Here is a sampling of some of Cooper's lies:

"It is difficult to find in the many hundreds of books written about John Calvin many instances of him being a loving, kind, merciful or caring man, or pastor."

"What changed his mind [about returning to Geneva] was that those governing the city offered him lucrative benefits and position if he would return."

"The Consistory, one of the three governing bodies of the city."

"For seven years Calvin sought to capture and try Servetus."

"...Servetus was not a citizen of Geneva, but was only visiting the city. Thus, the misdirected piety of John Calvin claimed but another victim."

"[He] was now conducting his own Reformed Inquisition in Geneva."

"Calvin had 34 women burned at the stake."

"In 1568, the plague returned and Calvin wrote..."

"Calvin was completely devoid of human kindness, and mercy."

"Calvin himself refused to visit the sick, [during the plague] Calvin directed his servants to declare him 'indispensable' he made no effort to comfort, visit or minister to the sick."

 

[Reformed]

One has to carefully consider when you praise an author. His "research" is an absurd patchwork of lies and deliberate slander.

Here is a sampling of some of Cooper's lies:

"It is difficult to find in the many hundreds of books written about John Calvin many instances of him being a loving, kind, merciful or caring man, or pastor."

"What changed his mind [about returning to Geneva] was that those governing the city offered him lucrative benefits and position if he would return."

"The Consistory, one of the three governing bodies of the city."

"For seven years Calvin sought to capture and try Servetus."

"...Servetus was not a citizen of Geneva, but was only visiting the city. Thus, the misdirected piety of John Calvin claimed but another victim."

"[He] was now conducting his own Reformed Inquisition in Geneva."

"Calvin had 34 women burned at the stake."

"In 1568, the plague returned and Calvin wrote..."

"Calvin was completely devoid of human kindness, and mercy."

"Calvin himself refused to visit the sick, [during the plague] Calvin directed his servants to declare him 'indispensable' he made no effort to comfort, visit or minister to the sick."

Cooper's "sources", quite simply, were other disgruntled anti-Calvinists. It is what some politicians and their operatives do: try to pawn off fiction for fact. For the anti-Calvinist it all begins with their flawed premise that Monergism was invented by John Calvin.