US and Israel

[OnlyaSinner]

Nothing about this post is true

I'd give some credence to its first 8 words ("All foreign policy is powered by self interest.") There is nothing like altruism in FP., as they fit with a maxim I heard decades ago and which I've seen play out over and over: "No nation is to be trusted beyond where it is bound by self-interest."

The most popular US president in modern history both in and out of the US.

Guess that means "modern history" began about 30 years ago. Reagan was pretty popular here and Ike/JFK here and abroad.

 

[Agent47]

You are wrong and way off base. Take the Rosenberg case and think about it.

When we dropped the bombs on Nagasaki/Hiroshima Japan the world was shocked and astonished, no one knew except the tight circle of scientists what the ultimate repercussions would be.

The Rosenbergs were executed for releasing DETAILS of our secrets “Conspiracy to Commit Espionage.”

which was quite an incentive to SHUT UP!

After 50 years there are "things" which will go to the grave with me.

One exception was the 911 catastrophe and you were correct it had to do with information which is/was VERBOTTEN to speak about yet it was broadcast on TV all over the nation after 50 years of secrecy that I never heard compromised and never heard an official declassification so it was a blunder I assume - because "it" was quickly removed from the press releases but not all.

Also as a civilian I worked for NUSC (Naval Underwater System Center) as a Software Engineer.

If we flash toys it is probably because they have been replaced though one can still go to jail for exposing details.
The Russians KNOW this and are stupid in that respect.

Please watch the clip. His point was, secret weapons never remain secret forever, and secrecy defeats the purpose of acting as a deterrent. Secrecy is normally during R&D.

 

[Agent47]

I'd give some credence to its first 8 words ("All foreign policy is powered by self interest.") There is nothing like altruism in FP., as they fit with a maxim I heard decades ago and which I've seen play out over and over: "No nation is to be trusted beyond where it is bound by self-interest."

The most popular US president in modern history both in and out of the US.

Guess that means "modern history" began about 30 years ago. Reagan was pretty popular here and Ike/JFK here and abroad.

I like your quote on self interest.

About Obama, let’s just say he is more popular here and abroad by far compared to Trump and Bush Jnr

 

[HankD]

Please watch the clip. His point was, secret weapons never remain secret forever, and secrecy defeats the purpose of acting as a deterrent. Secrecy is normally during R&D.

I did and he is wrong but I can't risk proving it. Think about it.

 

[asterisktom]

Israel is always the fall guy for haters. It's intellectually lazy to play the "Israel" card. So you can dispense with the anti-Semitic barbs. It has no place on a Christian message board.

It is even more intellectually lazy to play the "anti-semitic" card. Such laziness should have no place on Christian Discussion board.

 

[asterisktom]

To say that the US gets nothing from being an ally of Israel is factually incorrect and historically illiterate.

True, we cannot say we get nothing from being an ally of Israel. Under the Johnson administration we got a serious beating from them. Just search the web for "USS Liberty"'. Here's a page to check out:'
New Evidence Proves Israel Attacked USS Liberty With Orders to Kill 294 Americans - Global Research

Our relationship with Israel is not best described as "allies". It is better to say that the US is on Israel's leash. Sad to say, many Christians think they are supporting an ally when they are actually enabling a nation that, time and again, has acted against our interests. They use Christians and their misguided eschatology to further their own national interests.

 

[GoodTidings]

True, we cannot say we get nothing from being an ally of Israel. Under the Johnson administration we got a serious beating from them. Just search the web for "USS Liberty"'. Here's a page to check out:'
New Evidence Proves Israel Attacked USS Liberty With Orders to Kill 294 Americans - Global Research

That's called a conspiracy theory. In 1997, declassified information was released by both Israel and the US because they share a 30-year declassification rule.

The declassified information confirmed what was already known, namely that Israel mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian vessel. The reason for the mistake was the fact that the US had sold outdated naval vessels to Egypt. Egypt had been shelling Israeli positions and they used the American ships they purchased and hoisted up American flags in an attempt to get closer to Israeli targets in the Gazan area. Israel got wise to that tactic and destroyed those vessels.

The Liberty was close to the Israeli shores and had been ordered out of the area but the orders were routed through the Philippines due to antiquated, WW2 communication systems and they got the orders too late. They were mistaken for an Egyptian vessel and fired upon it. Declassified communication records confirm this. A US spy plane intercepted Israeli communications about the Liberty and they consistently referred to it as an Egyptian vessel.

It is important to keep in mind that Israel was at war and we all know that things happen, wrong calculations are made in the fog of war and friendly fire is unfortunately, all too common. The US has made the same kind of mistake in the past. This was a case of mistaken identity, and Israel made reparations to the US and to the survivors and the families of those who were killed in those attacks.

Our relationship with Israel is not best described as "allies". It is better to say that the US is on Israel's leash. Sad to say, many Christians think they are supporting an ally when they are actually enabling a nation that, time and again, has acted against our interests. They use Christians and their misguided eschatology to further their own national interests.

They act in their own interests and sometimes that works against our interests. Israel is not a vassal nation to the US. The US also pursues its own interests that works against Israel's interests. So why single Israel out for special condemnation for things that every nation does?

 

[GoodTidings]

It is even more intellectually lazy to play the "anti-semitic" card. Such laziness should have no place on Christian Discussion board.

It's not lazy. It just reflects more honesty than people like you can face up to.

 

[asterisktom]

It's not lazy. It just reflects more honesty than people like you can face up to.

When I have time I will answer your other comments. But I want to first point out that mature Christians do not automatically judge motives.

 

[Adonia]

Trump walked away from JCPOA in part to spite Obama and in part under pressure from Israel which felt the deal never covered Iran exporting ‘terrorism’ (read Hezbollah and Houthis).

This was an agreement between Obama and the Iranians only. It was not binding on the nation as a whole because it was not ratified by the U.S. Senate, so President Trump did the right thing in walking away from it. Maybe next time any President makes an agreement with a foreign nation he/she will follow the Constitution and bring it to the Senate for ratification.

 

[Adonia]

They were mistaken for an Egyptian vessel and fired upon it. Declassified communication records confirm this.

With an American flag flying? You know, I lived in a small town in New Hampshire and I met a man who was a retired Lt. Commander of the U.S. Navy - his last name was Lewis. He was the Intelligence Officer aboard the Liberty and I got the real story from him. There was indeed an American flag flying and radio messages were sent out to confirm this was an American vessel. Fighter planes were en route to help them but were called back by LBJ. I support Israel but this attack went too far.

 

[GoodTidings]

With an American flag flying? You know, I lived in a small town in New Hampshire and I met a man who was a retired Lt. Commander of the U.S. Navy - his last name was Lewis. He was the Intelligence Officer aboard the Liberty and I got the real story from him. There was indeed an American flag flying and radio messages were sent out to confirm this was an American vessel. Fighter planes were en route to help them but were called back by LBJ. I support Israel but this attack went too far.

You didn't read what I said. The Egyptians were using ships they bought from the US and they put American flags on the destroyers they purchased from the US so they could get closer to Israeli positions they wanted to shell. The knew the Israelis would not target those destroyers if they saw an American flag. Israel got wise to that tactic and sunk those ships.

The Liberty had an American flag on it, and the Israeli pilots thought it was another Egyptian vessel with an American flag. The declassified recordings intercepted by our spy plane confirmed that.

Yes, they got word that it was an American vessel but that was AFTER the attack, not before. Israel immediately called off the attack and sent assistance to help and made reparations to the US and the families of those lost and to the survivors. It was a case of friendly fire while Israel was in a state of war. That kind of stuff happens in war all of the time. It's just when the Jews are plugged into the equation, a case of friendly fire suddenly turns into a war crime.

Michael Oren wrote a great book called, "Six Days of War" where he deals with all of the classified information that is now declassified as of 1997.

The declassified info puts to rest all of the conspiracy theories that are spun about that matter.

 

[HankD]

Things are teetering again on the brink of war.

This situation along the Euphrates is like birth pangs.

They get greater in intensity and closer together.

Scary in one way but "look up"...

 

[GoodTidings]

When I have time I will answer your other comments. But I want to first point out that mature Christians do not automatically judge motives.

But you judge the motives of Israel. Hypocrisy is the art of condemning in others what you permit in yourself.

 

[GoodTidings]

I like your quote on self interest.

About Obama, let’s just say he is more popular here and abroad by far compared to Trump and Bush Jnr

Yeah, he is more popular in the same way the loose girl, who never says no, is popular with all the guys at the party.

 

[asterisktom]

But you judge the motives of Israel. Hypocrisy is the art of condemning in others what you permit in yourself.

Citing the actions of a nation are not the same as judging motives. If you can't see the difference between them then further discussion is fruitless. And your second sentence was a non-sequitur. though it probably sounded clever to you.

Last word to you because I am putting you on ignore.

 

[church mouse guy]

True, we cannot say we get nothing from being an ally of Israel. Under the Johnson administration we got a serious beating from them. Just search the web for "USS Liberty"'. Here's a page to check out:'
New Evidence Proves Israel Attacked USS Liberty With Orders to Kill 294 Americans - Global Research

Our relationship with Israel is not best described as "allies". It is better to say that the US is on Israel's leash. Sad to say, many Christians think they are supporting an ally when they are actually enabling a nation that, time and again, has acted against our interests. They use Christians and their misguided eschatology to further their own national interests.

Did you borrow the leash thing from the Germans?

 

[MartyF]

It's not lazy. It just reflects more honesty than people like you can face up to.

Citing the actions of a nation are not the same as judging motives. If you can't see the difference between them then further discussion is fruitless. And your second sentence was a non-sequitur. though it probably sounded clever to you.

Last word to you because I am putting you on ignore.

Don't worry, GoodTidings, he puts anyone on ignore that challenges his intellect. And like a good Christian he always leaves with an insult.

 

[GoodTidings]

Citing the actions of a nation are not the same as judging motives. If you can't see the difference between them then further discussion is fruitless. And your second sentence was a non-sequitur. though it probably sounded clever to you.

Last word to you because I am putting you on ignore.

I really, really do not care.

 

[Adonia]

You didn't read what I said. The Egyptians were using ships they bought from the US and they put American flags on the destroyers they purchased from the US so they could get closer to Israeli positions they wanted to shell. The knew the Israelis would not target those destroyers if they saw an American flag. Israel got wise to that tactic and sunk those ships.

The Liberty had an American flag on it, and the Israeli pilots thought it was another Egyptian vessel with an American flag. The declassified recordings intercepted by our spy plane confirmed that.

Yes, they got word that it was an American vessel but that was AFTER the attack, not before. Israel immediately called off the attack and sent assistance to help and made reparations to the US and the families of those lost and to the survivors. It was a case of friendly fire while Israel was in a state of war. That kind of stuff happens in war all of the time. It's just when the Jews are plugged into the equation, a case of friendly fire suddenly turns into a war crime.

Michael Oren wrote a great book called, "Six Days of War" where he deals with all of the classified information that is now declassified as of 1997.

The declassified info puts to rest all of the conspiracy theories that are spun about that matter.

You didn't read what I said. The Egyptians were using ships they bought from the US and they put American flags on the destroyers they purchased from the US so they could get closer to Israeli positions they wanted to shell. The knew the Israelis would not target those destroyers if they saw an American flag. Israel got wise to that tactic and sunk those ships.

The Liberty had an American flag on it, and the Israeli pilots thought it was another Egyptian vessel with an American flag. The declassified recordings intercepted by our spy plane confirmed that.

Yes, they got word that it was an American vessel but that was AFTER the attack, not before. Israel immediately called off the attack and sent assistance to help and made reparations to the US and the families of those lost and to the survivors. It was a case of friendly fire while Israel was in a state of war. That kind of stuff happens in war all of the time. It's just when the Jews are plugged into the equation, a case of friendly fire suddenly turns into a war crime.

Michael Oren wrote a great book called, "Six Days of War" where he deals with all of the classified information that is now declassified as of 1997.

The declassified info puts to rest all of the conspiracy theories that are spun about that matter.

According to the retired Naval Officer whom I talked to and who was there (who also did extensive research of the incident), U.S. Navy jets had been dispatched to the scene and would have arrived WHILE THE ATTACK WAS IN PROGRESS were called back by LBJ. So what was up with that?