US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

[targus]

Terry Jones used to pastor a church in Cologne, Germany, but he was kicked out last year because he was radical and for financial irregularities. Some members are still being treated because of spiritual abuse. Now he stirs up trouble here in the USA.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html

Is this guy that different than Jeremiah Wright?

The Demoncrats had no problem with his hate preaching.

 

[JTornado1]

Is this guy that different than Jeremiah Wright?

The Demoncrats had no problem with his hate preaching.

I think Terry Jones should go back to Germany and take Jeremiah Wright with him. :thumbs:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have watched this unfold with interest. Do I agree with the actions of this man and those that are following him? No. Do I have a problem with seeing a koran burned? No. But it is interesting to see the world's reaction to this.

America has the opportunity to demonstrate what it means to live in real freedom. Folks, we are talking about 50 people in a world of 6 billion having a little bonfire in their backyard.

And what if it were the Bible? Would Christians take to the streets and threaten violence against innocent people and burn effigies of Mohammed and Islamic flags? No.

It's time for the world to look and see. What does following the koran lead the people into? What does following the Bible lead the people into? If the so-called extreme element of following the Bible is this pastor who burns someone's book and thinks their religion is evil.

The real telling sign here is the Muslim reaction to this. Not what this pastor is doing.

 

[annsni]

Terry Jones used to pastor a church in Cologne, Germany, but he was kicked out last year because he was radical and for financial irregularities. Some members are still being treated because of spiritual abuse. Now he stirs up trouble here in the USA.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html

I think we do need to be discerning because in reading this article, I can see a lot of OUR churches included in the descriptions. Remember how the world views the church and followers of the Bible. Here's part of the article and I'll add my comments in between (this is a running part of the article with nothing removed from the beginning to the end although it's not the complete article - just what I wanted to touch on:

In the United States, Jones has already attracted attention on several occasions as an Islamophobic provocateur. What is less well known is that the pastor led a charismatic evangelical church, the Christian Community of Cologne, in the western German city up until 2009. Last year, however, the members of the congregation kicked founder Jones out, because of his radicalism. One of the church's current leaders, Stephan Baar, also told the German news agency DPA that there had been suspicions of financial irregularities in the church surrounding Jones.

Could the "radicalism" be a liberal way of saying "standing on Scripture"? The "suspicions of financial irregularities" could be an excuse because if it were true, they would have said something about it being investigated but it looks like nothing was done with it.

A "climate of fear and control" had previously prevailed in the congregation, says one former member of the church who does not want to be named. Instead of free expression, "blind obedience" was demanded, he says.

Again, can this be a liberal way of saying "They told us what the Bible said but we didn't want to listen??"

Various witnesses gave SPIEGEL ONLINE consistent accounts of the Jones' behavior. The pastor and his wife apparently regarded themselves as having been appointed by God, meaning opposition was a crime against the Lord. Terry and Sylvia Jones allegedly used these methods to ask for money in an increasingly insistent manner, as well as making members of the congregation carry out work.

How many of you pastors consider yourself appointed by God?? And how many teach that disobeying spiritual authorities in Biblical matters is disobeying God? I know in our church we've had LOTS of examples of this. One that I can think of off hand is a young woman who was in ministry who moved in with a man who she was not married to. Our pastor met with her and explained Scripture and said that if she chooses to disobey, she's disobeying God and they would remove her from the ministry. Of course her view is that we're narrow minded bigots who need to get our heads out of the sand.

Andrew Schäfer, a Protestant Church official responsible for monitoring sects in the region where Cologne is located, confirmed the accounts. "Terry Jones is a fundamentalist," he told SPIEGEL ONLINE.

What Protestant Church is he an official in? Is it an Evangelical church that stands on the Word of God? So Terry Jones is a fundamentalist. I'm sure each and every one of my pastors including my husband would be labeled as such as well.

Both major churches in Germany have "sect commissioners" who monitor the activities of religious groups, sects and cults. Although they are obviously not totally impartial, the officials' findings are usually considered to be trustworthy.

"Obviously not totally impartial" is a pretty important phrase here. "Usually" is another pretty important term.

'Delusional Personality'

Former church members are still undergoing therapy as a result of "spiritual abuse," Schäfer said. According to Schäfer, Jones urged church members to beat their children with a rod and also taught "a distinctive demonology" and conducted brainwashing.

Did he urge them to beat their children or did he encourage parents to discipline their children sometimes spanking them? Our church does that. So does the Bible. Of course it could be off on the other end AKA Michael Pearl which is totally wrong. "A distinctive demonology" doesn't tell us if he's teaching the Biblical teaching on demons and angels and the "conducted brainwashing" is quite subjective. Someone just posted on Facebook a few weeks that everyone in my church is being brainwashed because of our pastor's teaching. Of course she has been married three times and her husband now has decided he's a woman and most in our congregation say that's wrong. We're brainwashed, I tell you!!

"Terry Jones appears to have a delusional personality," speculates Schäfer. When he came to Germany in the 1980s, Jones apparently considered Cologne "a city of Hell that was founded by Nero's mother," while he thought Germany was "a key country for the supposed Christian revival of Europe," Schäfer says.

What's delusional about that??

Terry Jones used his powers of persuasion to expand the congregation. By the end, Schäfer estimates, it numbered between 800 and 1,000 people. They had to work in the so-called "Lisa Jones Houses," charitable institutions named after his first wife who has since died, under very poor conditions.

Did they have to or was it a ministry that the church was running and many did help? I don't know what "very poor conditions" are - it would be interesting to find out more about this.

So what about all this makes him a "delusional personality"?

Increasingly Radical

Jones became increasingly radical as the years went by, former associates say. At one point he wanted to help a homosexual member to "pray away his sins." Later he began to increasingly target Islam in his sermons. A congregation member reported that some members were afraid to attend services because they expected to be attacked by Muslims. "Terry Jones has a talent for finding topical social issues and seizing on them for his own cause," says Schäfer.

Heretical I say!! Hang him!! So he asks a homosexual to repent (and apparently is working with him??) and is preaching against a false religion to his congregation in an area where Islam is gaining GREAT footholds?? Sacrilege!!

By the end of 2007, the community had had enough. Members confronted him and tried to change the direction of the church. But Terry Jones refused to make changes, they say. In the end, Jones, his wife and their fellow preachers were expelled from the church and he moved back to the US. "The community imploded," says Schäfer. It only has some 80 active members today.

Was this a case of worldly German culture winning? I know American churches that have done the same.

Now the whole world is condemning Jones for his planned burning of copies of the Koran. Schäfer, for his part, sees Jones as a fanatic who is courting global media attention because he couldn't cope with the "immense loss of power and significance."

I just don't know if we can ascribe this motivation to the man.

I do think this pastor is completely wrong in doing this. He's hurting his testimony to the Muslims in a really big way. How much better would it be to start a ministry to the Muslims? We know Muslims don't have any ministry to Christians but we can do our part to minister to them and lead them to know the true God of heaven and earth. Burning their holy book will just put them in a place of hate and avoidance. NOT healthy for ministry in any case.

 

[billwald]

Wait until he gets the idea to burn the Book of Mormon. Then the fun will start.

 

[tinytim]

Phelps, Jones, and Spamderson... wouldn't that be an interesting circus?

 

[Aaron]

Thank God for all three. Where's our sanctimonious President pontificating on religious freedom now?

 

[annsni]

Thank God for all three.

I don't think that these three are from God.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Thank God for all three. Where's our sanctimonious President pontificating on religious freedom now?

The administration has been clear that this sociopath has a legal right to burn the Koran.

 

[JTornado1]

My church teaches that all religions are wrong except for Christianity, but none of the pastors have advocated burning the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, Tripitaka, etc. I think Terry Jones is doing it just to get attention and he doesn't seem to care who gets hurt.

 

[annsni]

My church teaches that all religions are wrong except for Christianity

Yep - This is what the Bible teaches as well.

What's interesting is to see the "world's" response to this and knowing that the ramifications of this are going to be huge but I doubt there will be a huge outcry against the attacks that will be a result of this. The double standard is glaring.

Be a Christian = can't do anything without being skewered in the press
Be a Muslim = you can do what you want and they'll dance around you to make sure not to offend you

 

[Loveday]

According to the news just now, Jones has changed his mind and will not be burning the books. Instead, apparently he'll be going to New York to meet with the Imam involved in the mosque situation.

Personally, I'm glad he's not going to go through with it. I seriously questioned his motives.

 

[abcgrad94]

What angers me is the response from Obama, that this will incite attacks on Americans, etc. as if to give Muslims an excuse to retaliate. There is NO EXCUSE for what the Muslims have done. None. Not doing something just to appease the Muslims is the wrong motivation. Now if Obama had the sense to point out that it would be easier to win the Muslims to Christ in a more peaceful manner, yeah, I might agree. But basically, he's wanting this guy to base his actions on fear of retaliation, and that annoys me greatly.

I wonder how many Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan are allowed to worship freely without being attacked, having their Bibles destroyed and their homes burned?

 

[annsni]

What angers me is the response from Obama, that this will incite attacks on Americans, etc. as if to give Muslims an excuse to retaliate. There is NO EXCUSE for what the Muslims have done. None. Not doing something just to appease the Muslims is the wrong motivation. Now if Obama had the sense to point out that it would be easier to win the Muslims to Christ in a more peaceful manner, yeah, I might agree. But basically, he's wanting this guy to base his actions on fear of retaliation, and that annoys me greatly.

Yep - It's the bully principle. They hurt us so we must tiptoe and not do anything to offend them.

I wonder how many Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan are allowed to worship freely without being attacked, having their Bibles destroyed and their homes burned?

Umm - LOTS. And now they're upset because people here in the US want their mosque moved someplace else. Not burned to the ground. Not having their members dragged out and shot or losing their jobs or being thrown in jail. No. They are angry and ready to retaliate because the people do not want their "holy building" to be placed on the graves of 2000+ people who were murdered in the name of their religion.

And it's such a peaceful religion.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

What angers me is the response from Obama, that this will incite attacks on Americans, etc. as if to give Muslims an excuse to retaliate. There is NO EXCUSE for what the Muslims have done. None. Not doing something just to appease the Muslims is the wrong motivation. Now if Obama had the sense to point out that it would be easier to win the Muslims to Christ in a more peaceful manner, yeah, I might agree. But basically, he's wanting this guy to base his actions on fear of retaliation, and that annoys me greatly.

I'm not buying it. First off, it's only a minuscule number of Muslims that want to attack America. Secondly, OF COURSE there is no excuse for violent, unlawful terrorist acts, and no one, including the President said that there is. However, at a certain point you're just asking for trouble. There about 2 million Muslims in the United States. As a former Census worker, I know that about 2% of the population is crazy. That means that there about 40,000 crazy Muslims in the country. Odds are, if you do hateful things like burn the Koran, one of them will be crazy enough to retaliate. To illustrate, if a white person went in to the hood and started shouting racial epithets about black people, he will probably end up getting beat up. That doesn't mean it was right to beat him up, but as I said, at a certain point you're just asking for it.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Under Heavy Pressure, Florida Pastor Calls Off Koran Burning on 9/11

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/09/obama-calls-plan-burn-korans-stunt-urges-pastor/ Obama said in the ABC interview. "I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women in uniform who are in Iraq, who are in Afghanistan." Well what does that say then about the peaceful religion of Islam? It's a walking on eggshells thing-a-ma-gig!

 

[StefanM]

What angers me is the response from Obama, that this will incite attacks on Americans, etc. as if to give Muslims an excuse to retaliate. There is NO EXCUSE for what the Muslims have done. None. Not doing something just to appease the Muslims is the wrong motivation. Now if Obama had the sense to point out that it would be easier to win the Muslims to Christ in a more peaceful manner, yeah, I might agree. But basically, he's wanting this guy to base his actions on fear of retaliation, and that annoys me greatly.

I wonder how many Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan are allowed to worship freely without being attacked, having their Bibles destroyed and their homes burned?

Oh come on.

Do you REALLY expect an American president to talk about converting Muslims?

The fact of the matter is that Obama is correct. This will unnecessarily incite unstable and violent individuals. I'm thankful it won't be happening.

 

[abcgrad94]

Oh come on.

Do you REALLY expect an American president to talk about converting Muslims?

No, not this president anyway.

As far as him being correct, well, it doesn't take much to "incite" the Muslims. Anything can be used as an excuse, it seems. What it boils down to is that they are responsible for their own behavior. Just because someone does something stupid doesn't give them a license to retaliate, and just because they threaten to retaliate doesn't mean we should tip toe around in fear, either.

 

[rbell]

I'm seeing a trend that worries me.

Over the last few hours, the government has gotten more and more involved in this. Now, FBI agents are meeting with this pastor.

Look, this "pastor" is a goofball, at best. He ought to be ignored. But, he's got an audience and 15 minutes now...he's capitalizing.

But I'm worried. I think there's about to be an arrest, or a prohibition, against constitutionally protected (offensive, but protected) free speech.

Should this moron do what he's doing? Nope. But if he's arrested, or harrassed by our government--then we're not much better than those tinhorn "Islamic republics" regarding liberty.

Obama, Holder, et al-- be offended. But for goodness' sake, remember that we have a First Amendment. Not that you guys believe in it...but for once, could you all pretend?

 

[StefanM]

No, not this president anyway.

As far as him being correct, well, it doesn't take much to "incite" the Muslims. Anything can be used as an excuse, it seems. What it boils down to is that they are responsible for their own behavior. Just because someone does something stupid doesn't give them a license to retaliate, and just because they threaten to retaliate doesn't mean we should tip toe around in fear, either.

That doesn't give them a license to retaliate, but provoking a violent group is just plain unwise. You can't intentionally anger a volatile group without expecting problems.