USA Tortures Canadian

Torture by Clinton or Bush is bad. Thanks for the link - the footnotes are particularly good. It'll take some reading to get a grasp of it all.

 

So...do you think Clinton was pure evil? Are you ready to condemn Clinton as harshly as you are Bush? I am looking for you to say these words: "I think now we all understand just how evil Clinton was".

Joseph Botwinick

 

Daisy you need to read this young mans own account of what happened. you provided the link. He himself in the link you provided said:

There isnt any question by his own account as to who did the torture and who was present:

Here Abdullah the one Arar was questioned about points to Canada with regards to his capture.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=09fc9e93-5de7-4e3f-8a3e-1c12ef67f3fb

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...372940&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Arar is asked why the delegation from Canada hates him so much?

Daisy in his account at the link you provided:
http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers story.php

He recounts only syrian and Canadian reps present. No americans. This is not a grey area at all. You cannot place an American in Syria where he was imprisoned and beaten. But you can place Syrian and Canadian officials in Syria.

maybe you should read your own links and do a better job of checking your facts.

 

Again the op lacks credibility.

http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers story.php

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=09fc9e93-5de7-4e3f-8a3e-1c12ef67f3fb

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...372940&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

http://www.google.com/search?q=Abdullah+Almalki&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

 

Bush isn't evil. He's venial. He's a weak person, unable to see beyond whatever he wants the truth to be. And always he wants it so as to make things easiest for him and his friends.

He's no different than the rest of us, except he has no character.

 

Kind of like Bill Clinton, right?

Joseph Botwinick

 

No, but I never thought Bush was pure evil either. I doubt any person is pure anything - maybe pure human...but then there's the soul...

Probably not, as I see Clinton as having redeeming qualities (as president) that I think Bush lacks. I haven't begun to read all at is on that site yet, so it's a bit premature - I may yet.

Oh, that's possible, but I haven't come to that conclusion yet.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy
I didn't see that Canada asked the US to detain him in the source. I saw that:


There are a few hints: 'under pressure to produce', 'without justification', 'falsely labeled', 'no involvement , 'categorically there is no evidence', 'innocent Canadian', ...

You say this is "reasonable"? Why?


The man's description is "innocent", "falsely accused", etc, so no, not in the man's description. But

"The report, released in Ottawa, was the result of a 2 1/2-year inquiry that represented one of the first public investigations into mistakes made as part of the United States' "extraordinary rendition" program, which has secretly spirited suspects to foreign countries for interrogation by often brutal methods."

"This is really the first report in the Western world that has had access to all of the government documents we wanted and saw the practice of extraordinary rendition in full color," he said in an interview from Ottawa. "The ramifications were that an innocent Canadian was tortured, his life was put upside down, and it set him back years and years."

​

Right, torture is good when done for the right reasons.

What? Where did you get that from? He came to Canada when he was 17.

That's just wrong. Canada did not request that we detain him.
...


Quote:
They did not interview him in Syria. Where are you getting this misinformation from? Are you making it up or do you have a source?



Daisy you need to read this young mans own account of what happened. you provided the link. He himself in the link you provided said:
Quote:
October 6, 2002

At 9:00 p.m. on Sunday night, guards come to take Arar from his cell, saying that his attorney is there to see him. Arar is taken to a room where about seven officials are waiting. His attorney is not there. He is told that they contacted his attorney and that “he” refused to come (thisis strange because Arar’s lawyer is a woman).

They ask why Arar does not want to go to Syria, and Arar tells them he is afraid he will be tortured there. He says he did not do his military service before leaving Syria, he is a Sunni Muslim, and his mother’s cousin was accused of being part of the Muslim Brotherhood and imprisoned. They ask him to sign a document, and he refuses.

This session continues until 3:00 a.m., when he is taken back to his cell.


There isnt any question by his own account as to who did the torture and who was present:

Quote:
On October 4 Arar receives a visit from Canadian consul Maureen Girvan. Arar shows her the document he has been given, and she notes the contents. He tells her he is frightened of being deported to Syria, and she reassures him that this will not happen.


Quote:
October 29, 2002

Arar receives his second visit from Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator throughout the meeting.


Quote:
November 12, 2002

Arar receives his third visit from Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator throughout the meeting. Arar asks for money so he can purchase clothing and supplies. After the meeting, his captors are angry that he made that request, but he is not beaten.


Here Abdullah the one Arar was questioned about points to Canada with regards to his capture.
Quote:
Who is Abdullah Almalki?
Syrian-born Canadian Abdullah Almalki, of Ottawa, was at the centre of an RCMP national security investigation that cast suspicion on Maher Arar. Like Mr. Arar, Mr. Almalki was tortured in a Syrian jail. He believes Canadian officials were complicit. Unlike Mr. Arar, there are no answers forthcoming about Canada's alleged role in his torture. Indeed, the RCMP maintain he is still under investigation. Andrew Duffy sat down with Mr. Almalki for three hours last week with one question in mind: Who is Abdullah Almalki?

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawac...e-1c12ef67f3fb

Quote:
Almalki sues 13 officials over stint in Syrian jail
By JEFF SALLOT


Wednesday, March 8, 2006, Page A6

OTTAWA -- Ottawa businessman Abdullah Almalki claims in a lawsuit that Canadian officials conspired with Syria to extract from him by torture information about Maher Arar and other Canadian Muslim men.

In a suit filed yesterday in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Mr. Almalki identifies 13 officials of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Department of Foreign Affairs as part of a conspiracy to deprive him of his human rights.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rce_login=true

Quote:
December 10, 2002

Arar receives his fourth visit from Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator throughout the meeting. The consul delivers money and two weeks after the meeting, Arar is able to get new clothes and change for the first time since the flight from the US.


Quote:
January 7, 2003

Arar receives his fifth visit from Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator throughout the meeting.


Quote:
February 8, 2003

Arar receives his sixth visit from Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator throughout the meeting. During the visit the Syrian officials question why these visits are necessary, saying they will take care of Arar.


Quote:
July, 2003

Arar asks again for a meeting with an investigator and his request is eventually granted. He tells him he has nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The Syrian official asks Arar why he is accused of this, why they sent a delegation, and why these people hate him so much. Arar says he does not know.

Arar notices his skin is turning yellow, and feels he is at the brink of a nervous breakdown.


Arar is asked why the delegation from Canada hates him so much?
Quote:
August 14, 2003

Arar receives his seventh visit from the Canadian consul. He is again accompanied by Syrian officials and his interrogator, and the head Syrian military intelligence is also there. Arar has decided he cannot survive living in these conditions anymore, and that it is worth risking more physical torture to stop the ongoing psychological torture of remaining in the “grave.” He bursts and tells the Canadian consul, in English, in front of the Syrian officials, about his cell and the conditions he is living in. The consul asks if he has been tortured, and Arar replies yes, of course – at the beginning. After the meeting, Arar can see that his captors are very angry, and he is terrified that he will be physically tortured again, but he is not.


Quote:
August 20, 2003

Arar is blindfolded, put in a vehicle and driven to Sednaya prison. Once again Syrian officials will not tell him where he is going. He has heard from the other prisoners at the Investigation Branch that prisoners are tortured when they arrive there, so he tells officials there he had been recently visited by a Canadian consular official. This seems to have an impact – Arar is not tortured when he arrives at Sednaya prison.

He is placed in a collective cell and is able to talk with other prisoners and move around. Arar says this was like heaven compared to where he was at the Palestine Branch.


Daisy in his account at the link you provided:
http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php

He recounts only syrian and Canadian reps present. No americans. This is not a grey area at all. You cannot place an American in Syria where he was imprisoned and beaten. But you can place Syrian and Canadian officials in Syria.

maybe you should read your own links and do a better job of checking your facts.
__________________
I believe America was founded on biblical, Christian precepts by devout Christians and I am a true American !





Good post, Rev. :thumbs:

Some people would prefer not to see the "whole story".

 

Well? Why is it?

I should have said what I meant, that they, meaning the Canadians, did not interrogate him. The consulate did interview him as he is a Canandian citizen. It was not until he told them that he was being tortured that they did anything to get him released (or so it seems from his account).

His account does not state that he was taken to Syria on Canada's request.

That was from the thread a couple of weeks ago (linkie) concerning the fact of secret prisons. I wasn't reading for the particulars of Maher's story then, but you're right, I should've gone back and reread it now that that is the topic.

The excerpts you chose state that he was seen by the Canadian Consulate which is what you meant by "interviewed" which I misinterpreted you to mean "interrogated".

But that doesn't mean that the delegation from Canada actually hates him. The interrogators were trying to break him.

Ok, the US did not interrogate him that he is aware of. I had said I wasn't sure.

True enough, but the US shipped him there and many others as well and the Canadians got him out.

 

The spin machine will never end.

 

unless we stop yelling at each other and start posting comments directly to the government

 

I guess the thinking of the neocon is "you can't make an omlet, without breaking a few eggs."

 

Again, torture is wrong and against our laws.

There is one substantial difference according to Richard Clarke - in the Clinton renditions, the person is first tried and convicted in absentia while in the Bush renditions, there may never be a (completed) trial because of tainted evidence. It's true that being tried in absentia violates the defendent's right to defend himself, but at least a convincing case with actual evidence must be made before the person is rendered.

That article was used as reference to the Wiki article. It's long, but well worth reading to understand a bit more about the issues and the differences in approach between the FBI and the CIA.

Jimmy Carter (I believe) never would have sanctioned turning people over to foreign governments for torture. I've heard of these differences from other sources as well. The FBI is about law while the CIA is about expediency; I favor law.

 

Why is it that the frame of reference of these discussions is that Republicans are wrong and Democrats are right, or vice versa. If one argues for one or the other, and think that the opposite party is the answer, you are giving credience to one of the two of the most corrupt organizations in history.

The idea that there is a difference between the democrats and republicans is a facade. Why do we always lower ourselves to perpetuating this myth? It is time to raise our sights and standards and start over.

Both of the parties are controlled by special interests. Both parties are run by power hungry, lying, thieves. Neither one gives a hoot about what is good for the American people. Torture, lying, and other such activity are well within the capabilities of either party in control.

Do the republicans deserve to get thrashed this November. Yes they do. They have failed to protect the interests of the American people. They have failed to protect this country. They have failed to lead. Is President Bush honest and straightforward compared to Clinton. No, and the reverse could be said. But, if the Republicans deserve to lose, is the answer putting Democrats back in, I think not, because they are just as bad, just as corrupt.

We need two new parties that have the interests of the American people at heart, not their power.

The title of this thread is but a symptom of our low life leadership.

 

I have to agree with all that you have said here MP this country has become a Big Bully & thats all thanks to Mr. Bush. Yes he might have took Saddam out of Control but what good did that do when he just wants to step in & take over where he was.
Do you see that happen too?
So many people are so blind to Bush & what he is doing, Myself i see him as the wolf in sheeps clothes, what about you?

God Help us
Vera

 

A "Big Bully"?

What do you think we're in, a game of Red Rover?

There are no "Big Bullies" in a war.

 

that was really sensitive. what if it were one's relative who got sent off to Syria to get tortured?

or if another country took over the USA uninvited (God forbid)?

abt ur tagline, yeah the Liberals did nothin while the Conservatives went ballistic in response to 9-11. again, isn't there a 3rd, 4th, 5th ... etc. way? it's disappointing that people i've looked up to seem capable to think only in binaries.

 

Sure there are. In the case of the Iraq invasion, we're "it".

 

Only if you think like a child.