Galatians 3:13
Isaiah 53:5
1 peter 2:24
1 peter 3:18
2 Corinthians 5:21
For your reading pleasure
Penal Substitution
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Use of theories of atonement
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Isaiah 53:5
1 peter 2:24
1 peter 3:18
2 Corinthians 5:21
For your reading pleasure
Penal Substitution
You do know, don't you, that not a single verse you listed even suggested that Christ endured and suffered the wrath of God?
Isaiah had Messiah death being in the place of/on behalf of his people sins, Paul saw Jesus cursed by God Himself while upon that Cross, and Jesus was actually forsaken by God the Father on that Cross...
Jesus suffered hell upon that cross so that you and I would not have to!
Paul and Isaiah are in agreement with Peter who placed the crucifixion (as did the statement in parable by Christ shared earlier) upon the Jews. Not upon God.
All suffering f Christ, just as believer’s suffering, is permitted by God, sometimes as tests and trials of our faith, and to bring about His will, but never for detriment. Just as believer’s in Christ, Christ and the Father worked in concert to defeat sin, death, the grave.
Paul said that he bore the marks of Christ, we should do no less.
However, never does God appoint His children including His Son to wrath. Such is appointed to the ungodly and ungodliness.
Christ was never ungodly, never in rebellion. “He became sin for us, yet without sin.”
Acts 2:23
Acts 4:28
Isaiah 53
It was the will of God the father that Jesus would be put to death for our sins so that salvation could be accomplished!
Why do you think I would be in disagreement?
Certainly it was.
However, such does not express God’s wrath being extinguished for anyone.
Did God show wrath toward Adam and Eve? They saw the Christ face to face (for the Scriptures state no man has seen God).
Nope, he clothed them and sent them on a mission.
If God displayed no wrath upon the first Adam, why present that He did upon the second? The second had no sin! The second bore our sin, became the sin yet without sin. He was the justifier for the unjust, and could not be condemned by God.
he who knew no sin became very sin for us, as he bore in his body the due penalty from God for our own sins!
Certainly, but again the marks were all placed there by the hand of man, as Peter stated:
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
So where is the wrath of God poured out upon the Son in that statement by Peter?
Did God die? If Jesus was God, and Jesus died on the cross, does that mean God died? | GotQuestions.org
Question: "Did God die? If Jesus was God, and Jesus died on the cross, does that mean God died?"
Answer: Did God die when Jesus died on the cross? The answer depends on how we understand the meaning of the word die. To die does not mean to go out of existence. Death is separation. Physical death is when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body. So, in that sense, yes, God died, because Jesus was God in human form, and Jesus’ soul-spirit separated from His body (John 19:30). However, if by “death” we mean “a cessation of existence,” then, no, God did not die. For God to “die” in that sense would mean that He ceased to exist, and neither the Father nor the Son nor the Holy Spirit will ever cease to exist. The Son, the second Person of the Trinity, left the body He temporarily inhabited on Earth, but His divine nature did not die, nor could it.
[1Pe 3:18 KJV] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
it was the will of the Father that Jesus would die in our stead....
Jesus was under the curse of God Himself, as it was the will of the father that he would take upon himself in his own body our sins and receive our due punishment!
Not in question.
What exactly was the redemption Christ bore the curse from? The Law or God? Look carefully at Galatians 3:13.
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
You have appointed the curse as coming from God. It did not!
Christ BORE our sins yet He was with sin.
Christ REDEEMED us from the curse of the Law and the condemnation before God the Law brought.
Too often, imo, folks look upon the "curse of the tree" as if it were a curse from God. Not true, it is the curse of the Law, and Christ by suffering UNDER the law as the perfect lamb(s) of old were slain UNDER the law, brought redemption from the law - forever!
This is why the death and resurrection benefit ONLY believers and not the whole of the world, yet the Blood was shed for all creation.
The premise that Scripture does not clearly teach both what Christ accomplished on the cross, and what is accomplished when God credits our faith as righteousness and places us into Christ is mistaken.
In the OP, both actions, are lumped under the undefined term "atonement. PSA is simply a Trojan horse for the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement.
If, rather than atonement, the word reconciliation was used, then that action occurs when God places an individual spiritually into Christ.
The Basics:
1) Christ died for all mankind as a ransom for all. This "bought" everyone, those to be saved, and those never to be saved.
2 Peter:1:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2) The result of Christ's substitutionary sacrifice is that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind, the whole world.
1John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
In the OP, both actions, are lumped under the undefined term "atonement. PSA is simply a Trojan horse for the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement.
If, rather than atonement, the word reconciliation was used, then that action occurs when God places an individual spiritually into Christ.
The Basics:
1) Christ died for all mankind as a ransom for all. This "bought" everyone, those to be saved, and those never to be saved.
2 Peter:1:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2) The result of Christ's substitutionary sacrifice is that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind, the whole world.
1John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Not a single mark would have been put on Him if both He and His Father were not willing to have it done.
Jesus told Pilate:
" Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." ( John 19:10-11 ).
Pilate's power to have Jesus Christ, the Son of God, put to death on the cross...
was given to him from above.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. " ( Isaiah 53:4-10 ).
"...Smitten of God..." <--- "of" here means "by" or "from". God smote Him.
"...It pleased the Lord to bruise Him..." <---- It pleased the Father to bruise Him.
"...He hath put Him to grief..." <----- The Father has put Him to grief.
It is.
" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:" ( Galatians 3:13 ).
Galatians 3:13 is referencing Deuteronomy 21:23:
" His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance." ( Deuteronomy 21:23 ).Jesus was made a curse.
Everyone that hangs on a tree is cursed of God.
Everyone.
That is why I'm about 95% convinced that God's wrath, of some type, was poured out on the Lord while He hung on the tree.
Sometime ago I argued against this...
Now, I'm going the other direction.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
1) " Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:14 ).
What is, "the purchased possession"?
All men, or God's children?
If Jesus' blood bought all men, then they are "the purchased possession" waiting to be redeemed, are they not?
2) This says that only men out of every tongue, tribe and nation were redeemed:
" And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" ( Revelation 5:9 ).
Not all men.
3) This tells me He bought the church of God:
" Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." ( Acts of the Apostles 20:29 ).
If He bought everyone, then what did He purchase them from?
4) " who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:14 ).
So, if Christ bought all men, then they were redeemed from all iniquity.
That is universal salvation, Van.
God's word does not teach that.
5) " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s." ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ).
I'm sorry Van, but I must disagree with you.
Jesus blood bought His sheep ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 )...His bride, and actually redeemed them from all iniquity.
They are the "purchased possession"...
Not all men.
If all men were, then all men would have their sins forgiven, and would not have themselves judged out of the books of their works on Judgment Day.
Redemption took place at the cross for God's people ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), not when they believed.
What took place at the cross was for a specific group of people.
Therefore, if Jesus paid for the sins of all men on the cross, then all men are forgiven of their sins.
God has nothing to judge all men for, if they are bought.
If they are bought, then their sins are paid for.
Do you see how bought = sins paid for = forgiven?
I hope you do, at least someday.
Good evening to you, sir.
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Note that the verses presented do not say being bought equals being redeemed. So yet another deflection, avoiding biblical truth.
The premise that Scripture does not clearly teach both what Christ accomplished on the cross, and what is accomplished when God credits our faith as righteousness and places us into Christ is mistaken.
In the OP, both actions, are lumped under the undefined term "atonement. PSA is simply a Trojan horse for the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement.
If, rather than atonement, the word reconciliation was used, then that action occurs when God places an individual spiritually into Christ.
The Basics:
1) Christ died for all mankind as a ransom for all. This "bought" everyone, those to be saved, and those never to be saved.
2 Peter:1:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2) The result of Christ's substitutionary sacrifice is that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind, the whole world.
1John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
What was "bought?" Calvinists (see post # 35) like to define the word "bought" to mean "redeemed." This of course reflects a complete misunderstanding of the gospel. For example in Acts 20:28 scripture teaches Christ "bought" the "church of God." But those "called out" are part of mankind which was purchased in its entirety, and this verse does not say only those called out were "bought," the false claim of Calvinism.
Go back and read 2 Peter 2:1 again, those going to "swift destruction" were bought. So the idea "bought" means "redeemed" is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
Go back and read 2 Peter 2:1 again, those going to "swift destruction" were bought. So the idea "bought" means "redeemed" is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
Jesus took upon himself the Cups and Bowls of wrath God has stored up towards all sinners!
This tops the heretical assertion scale, people who die today will be punished for the wrath they stored up during their lives.
John 3:36, Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 5:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:10, and Revelation 19:15