Van Morrison: When Will I Ever Learn to Live in God

Yes. He and Gram formed the Burrito Brothers together after Gram got thrown out of the Byrds and Hillman got bored.

Funny you should bring up Gram Parsons.

Like Van Morrison, there's been a lot of speculation about his faith.

I really don't like to play Columbo when it comes to people's faith, but I do believe that there are clues that would seem to indicate, at least on the surface, that Gram may very well have been a Christian.

The first two things that come to mind are the fact that his elaborately designed "Nudie" suits featured Christian oriented imagery. In fact, his most popular suit jacket, featured on the album cover for "Guilded Palace of Sin", featured a giant cross with the inscription: "John 3:16/Jesus died for you".

The second is that he made a point of ending every performance with a cover of the old Louvin Brothers song, "The Christian Life", even if it meant bumping other songs off the setlist to make room.

I could be wrong, but I believe he also covered Kitty Wells' "Will Your Lawyer Talk to God For You".

A number of other songs showed sympathy for the Christian worldview and some did reflect some level of faith on Grams part.

We know that he spent two semesters at seminary and that his grandparents were Christians.

I mean, this is all just speculation, but I think that when taken as a whole, it does give us reason to believe that we'll see Gram again one day.

Something else that's interesting is the number of other people who were ran in the same circles who are Christians now.

Virtually all of the artists of the early days of the Jesus Movement are people you could play "Six Degrees of Gram Parsons" with.

The most obvious is Richie Furay, who is now a Calvary Chapel pastor.

Add to that, Al Perkins, Dan Peek, Chris Hillman, Herb Pederson, Jim Stafford (yes, that Jim Stafford), Jonathan Edwards (the "Sunshine (Go Away Today)" guy, not the 18th century English revivalist), Barry McGuire, and many others.

You mentioned Chris Hillman. Here is part of an interview with him I found while checking some of my facts for this post:

Triste: And if you don’t mind me asking, you describe yourself as a pretty ‘developed Christian’, I think, in one interview once. I suppose these songs are meaningful to you on a personal level - something deeper than just on a secular level. Of course, many people sing gospel songs, but obviously they have another deeper spiritual level, don’t they?

Chris Hillman: Well, yeah. I’m a member of the Greek Orthodox faith, having been an Evangelical Christian back in the 80’s, and then I converted to the orthodox faith. Yeah, I’m very much devoted to that, but I don’t get in people’s face about it, or try and convert anybody! But it is my own personal belief with my family, and I sing in the orthodox choir every Sunday - sing tenor - which is really Byzantine. Part of the liturgy that they do every week, and so it’s a completely different kind of music to what I do on stage, which is bluegrass. And even when we do gospel stuff, it’s out of the old Baptist style, and Herb and I do old gospel songs in our show. It’s really completely different. And then on Sundays when I’m in town, when I’m home, I sing these very old Byzantine hymns that you would hear in a monastery. But actually, both types of music embrace each other, if you follow me. I mean I get a lot out of the church singing as well as the other. And actually I get wonderful ideas from singing in a completely different style.

By the way, if you like Gram Parsons, go check out a movie called "Grand Theft Parsons" with Johnny Knoxville.

It's based on the true story of the theft of Parsons body following his death.

Good. I'm glad you liked that. I got a lot of feedback on that and I wasn't going to post it because I couldn't remember if I'd posted it before (I had).

And you, as well.

I've heard them a couple of times. I never really got the "I'm making twenty million dollars a year, isn't my life terrible" thing.

Now Playing: Bonnie Raitt - “Home Plate”

 

I thought I already quoted this article.

Like I said, he's intensely private and quite reclusive.

I agree with that last statement that he made.

Why do people assume that because you can pick a guitar, you must be called to minister and sing Gospel music?

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Honestly? No.

Because he doesn't talk about what he believes, and until I see evidence of "Scientology, transcendental meditation, and assorted New Age practices, I choose to go by what his songs say and not what others say about him.

He says he's a Christian and his songs contain lyrics things that are sympathetic to Christianity, if not outright statements of faith so I'm going to take his word for it until I see otherwise.

Now Playing: Ruthie and the Wranglers – “Someday”

 

Perhaps you could offer some alternatives for me to listen to.


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So, because I ask you for a source for a quote that you've taken out of context, I don't believe that Christ is the only way?

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If your conviction is that his music is bad because of something you read in an article that you don't know is true, then you shouldn't listen to it.

Nooooooo. Not you!

Although Van Morrison has included Gospel songs in his albums (his version of "Be Thou My Vision" is beautiful), I don't recall anyone here saying that he's a Gospel singer.

I'm glad that you feel qualified to judge them based on something that a third party says, that we don't even know is true.

I hope people judge you more fairly than you're judging them.

Of course I do, unless you're still going with the logic that my asking for a source for a quote that you took out of context means that I don't believe that Jesus is the "only way".

Who has said this?

I don't see how, either.

Of course I also don't see where I said this.

I hope you would be smart enough to judge his music on it's own merits.

A site that you can't provide a source for?

Of course you don't.

It is?

Could you please explain why his music, that was true when he was a Christian is now not true, now that he's not a Christian, according to you.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As a Christian (who does believe that Jesus is the "only way", regardless of what you say), I do identify with his lyrics.

I do indentify with the longing to know God more, as expressed in the song, "When Will I Learn to Trust in God".

I share his plea to God in "Be Thou My Vision".

I rejoice with him when he sings, "Whenever God Shines His Light".

No one has ever claimed that he was a Gospel singer, only that his songs express feelings and experiences that are common to the Christian.

It's ironic that the reason these two men refuse to talk about their faith is that it only leads to things like this thread.

On that note, this is the last I'll say about it.

If you have a conviction not to listen to it, then don't.

I believe that God is using it to speak to me.

Nothing you've said has been terribly persuasive.

So far, all you've done is offer out of context quotes with no sources and to tell me that I shouldn't listen to rock and roll without telling me what's wrong with the music or offering me an alternative, like I asked you to.

Frankly, I really stopped caring when you responded to my request for a source for your quote by saying that somehow meant that I don't believe Jesus is the "only way".

Thank you.

Now Playing: James Harmon - "Lonesome Moon Trance"

 

Right. This is the post in which I asked for a source. As you can see, nowhere in it did I say that Jesus Christ is not "the only way".

First of all, yes. I would like a source. If you're going to post such a thing, then it is incumbent upon you to back it up.

Second, now you're just being dishonest.

You know very well that I never said that believing that Jesus Christ as the Messiah is irrelevant.

Yes, and I explained what I meant by that.

Of course, I'm sure that my explanation won't stop you from trying to twist my words.

I take it you didn't read this link.

If you had, you would have seen that his friend and former pastor affirms Dylan's faith in Christ.

Here is the quote that you took out of context as it should have read:

The first thing we should note is that, what he said, he said in jest.

While it might lead to misunderstanding or, in your case, give ammo to those who would unfairly condemn him, it's a pretty reasonable statement to make.

Many of us can acknowledge that we are torn between two natures, so why is it that unreasonable for him to acknowledge that he still carries the influences of his Jewish upbringing?

OK. In all fairness, you didn't paste a quote out of context, you quoted someone who took a quote out of context.

The bottom line is that the quote is still out of context.

In any event, I don't see anything in the artical to indicate that Dylan "deconverted", only that his beliefs are very complex, as all of ours would be when examined only in bits and pieces.

Again, nothing here indicates to me that he has deconverted, only that his Christianity is informed by his Jewish upbringing.

Isn't this the case with all Messianic Jews?

In the past year or so, I've become increasingly interested in what role the Jewish roots of Christianity play in our faith.

I hope that doesn't mean that I'm not a Christian anymore.

also read..
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/Music/AmericanJewishMusicTO/RockMusic/Dylan.htm

I don't blame you for not trusting him.

I don't trust him either. That's why I don't accept this last link as being credible.

In any event, that's the last I have to say about this.

I started this thread to discuss our commonalities, not to debate over someone's salvation, who I've never even met.

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I've heard them a couple of times. I never really got the "I'm making twenty million dollars a year, isn't my life terrible" thing.</font>[/QUOTE]Nah, I actually enjoyed pondering the lyrics, though I never understood why they felt compelled to use such excessive profanity. Mr. Zimmerman never need to use profane language when he shook a generation.

Regards,
BiR </font>[/QUOTE]You're right but that's the problem with pop and rock music in general today. There are no good songwriters out there in the mainstream now.

I'm listening to Robbie Fulks' "Georgia Hard" right now and I believe that he is one of the premier songwriters out there today.

His song, "I Never Did Like Planes" sounds like it might have come from Merle Haggard's golden era.

And then there's Mac MacAnally, who always blows me away with his songwriting.

Of course, they wouldn't be the same kind of music as RAtM.


now Playing: Big Sandy and His Fly Rite Boys - "Night Tide"

 

Hey, by the way, speaking of Herb Pederson and Chris Hillman, I'm going to be seeing them at the Delaware Valley Bluegrass Festival over the Labor Day Weekend.


Now Playing: Elmore James - "The Sky is Crying"