Various Forms of Fundamentalism (particularly IFB)

[Greektim]

I tend to view IFBism as monolithic. However, some like TCassidy disagreed.

Then low and behold, TGC & Justin Taylor put out 2 recent blog posts about that very issue.

The 4 Phases of Protestant Fundamentalism in America
&
God Did Not Create All Fundamentalists the Same

He was relying much on John Fea's article, “Understanding the Changing Facade of Twentieth-Century American Protestant Fundamentalism: Toward a Historical Definition,” Trinity Journal 5NS (Fall 1994): 181–99, which was posted in the 4 Phases blog post above.

Back to the issue. I still think that the IFB church at large is not just centered around a 4 vol. book or 5 or 6 beliefs that are "fundamental". I think there is a common, at-large attitude in the IFB segment. It seems to me that the qualities of today's IFBxers are extreme separation, the pursuit of certainty of doctrine, and the belief that their way is the only way.

Of course, there are dissenters in this group. I think of institutions like Maranatha U or Detroit Baptist Theo Sem. They claim to be IFB, but they do not fit the mold I am casting.

 

[Revmitchell]

So you have a problem with the "pursuit of certainty of doctrine"?

 

[Greektim]

So you have a problem with the "pursuit of certainty of doctrine"?

As a mindset? Yes. People who need certainty for their doctrines leads to prooftexting and closemindedness. The difference is a pursuit of truth rather than a pursuit to be certain of an already obtained truth. This kind of mentality ("I'm certain I'm right") stems extreme separation and the denial to hear out dissenting views. This comes from the post-enlightenment, modernist period of which fundamentalism arose. The pursuit of truth and the certainty that truth could be obtained through the faculties of reason influenced fundamentalism as it had liberalism.

 

[Revmitchell]

Just....wow!

 

[Revmitchell]

As a mindset? Yes. People who need certainty for their doctrines leads to prooftexting and closemindedness. The difference is a pursuit of truth rather than a pursuit to be certain of an already obtained truth. This kind of mentality ("I'm certain I'm right") stems extreme separation and the denial to hear out dissenting views. This comes from the post-enlightenment, modernist period of which fundamentalism arose. The pursuit of truth and the certainty that truth could be obtained through the faculties of reason influenced fundamentalism as it had liberalism.

Do you think that the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world should be uncertain?

 

[HankD]

As a mindset? Yes. People who need certainty for their doctrines leads to prooftexting and closemindedness. The difference is a pursuit of truth rather than a pursuit to be certain of an already obtained truth. This kind of mentality ("I'm certain I'm right") stems extreme separation and the denial to hear out dissenting views. This comes from the post-enlightenment, modernist period of which fundamentalism arose. The pursuit of truth and the certainty that truth could be obtained through the faculties of reason influenced fundamentalism as it had liberalism.

This reminds me of the warning given to the church at Ephesus in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 2 (local church at Ephesus)
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Jesus commends them in vs 1-3 for their diligence in correct doctrine and practice.
But they had left their first love - perhaps because "correctness" had taken priority over agape love.

NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Most certainly correct doctrine is an absolute necessity but even that necessity must be tempered with agape love.

HankD

 

[Greektim]

Just....wow!

I knew you would be blown away

 

[Greektim]

Do you think that the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world should be uncertain?

Nope. It should be taken on faith as well as the promises God makes that if we believe in the finished work of Jesus we will be saved. Certainty and truth are not the same thing. And certainty and faith are definitely not the same thing.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nope. It should be taken on faith as well as the promises God makes that if we believe in the finished work of Jesus we will be saved. Certainty and truth are not the same thing. And certainty and faith are definitely not the same thing.

What do you mean by should be taken "on faith"? as opposed to being certain of what Jesus did and our salvation?

 

[John of Japan]

As a mindset? Yes. People who need certainty for their doctrines leads to prooftexting and closemindedness. The difference is a pursuit of truth rather than a pursuit to be certain of an already obtained truth. This kind of mentality ("I'm certain I'm right") stems extreme separation and the denial to hear out dissenting views. This comes from the post-enlightenment, modernist period of which fundamentalism arose. The pursuit of truth and the certainty that truth could be obtained through the faculties of reason influenced fundamentalism as it had liberalism.

So do you have a source for these views other than your own thinking? In particular, your last sentence looms as so completely different from the fundamentalism I grew up with and espouse that I can't for the life of me imagine where you got it.

 

[John of Japan]

Of course, there are dissenters in this group. I think of institutions like Maranatha U or Detroit Baptist Theo Sem. They claim to be IFB, but they do not fit the mold I am casting.

Maranatha and DBTS are not dissenters at all. Rather, they represent a separate stream of fundamentalism than what you probably grew up with. They both developed out of the fundamentalist movement in the Northern Baptist Convention, originally called the Fundamentalist Fellowship when founded in 1920. Eventually this group exited the NBC and became the Conservative Baptist Association. Within that group was a battle over premillenialism in Colorado (there were other issues nationwide) that resulted in the branch of the IFB movement I am a part of, with Maranatha, Pillsbury, Central Baptist Theological Seminary and others schools being started. (I'm simplifying a complicated history.)

 

[TCassidy]

I grew up with and espouse that I can't for the life of me imagine where you got it.

What GreekTim seems to be unaware of is that your Grandfather's paper, the Sword of the Lord, had a circulation of over 300,000 in its best years (correct me if that number is wrong).

It is hard to conceive of 300,000 of the Hyles type of "fundamentalism" existing without anyone noticing!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Broadly speaking, there are two streams of IFBdom.

• Those with roots in the Northern Baptist Convention
• Those with roots in the Southern Baptist Convention

While, there has been a goodly amount of cross pollination between the two. Twenty or so years ago, the two began disengaging.
Much of the cultural aspects of IFBdom come from the Southern branch. On the whole, the Northern branch is not given to anti-intellectualism or anti-seminary training.

 

[John of Japan]

What GreekTim seems to be unaware of is that your Grandfather's paper, the Sword of the Lord, had a circulation of over 300,000 in its best years (correct me if that number is wrong).

That figure is correct. In Walden's biography it gives that figure for 1974. And in those days the paper was all about living for Christ and seeing revival. It opposed the KJVO movement and radical separatism. As you know, my Granddad got into trouble in those days for being friends with SBC leaders like Criswell or Adrian Rogers. I'm reading Criswells's autobiography right now (a great read) and he spends several pages describing how he met John R. Rice as a boy of 12 and was greatly encouraged and then called to preach.

It is hard to conceive of 300,000 of the Hyles type of "fundamentalism" existing without anyone noticing!

Even Hyles wasn't a Hylesite in those days! I've had various fundamentalist leaders tell me they saw a big change in Hyles after JRR died in 1980.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

1980 was about the time bus ministries started to die out.

SNIP I've had various fundamentalist leaders tell me they saw a big change in Hyles after JRR died in 1980.

 

[TCassidy]

Even Hyles wasn't a Hylesite in those days! I've had various fundamentalist leaders tell me they saw a big change in Hyles after JRR died in 1980.

I agree. I think your granddad was Hyles' "anchor." He kept him from drifting to the fringe, and ultimately, over the edge. When your granddad died Hyles no longer had direction. And the rest is history.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The bus ministry and the Sunday Schools it supported were the roots of the Hyles style doing church.

1980 was about the time bus ministries started to die out.

 

[John of Japan]

The bus ministry and the Sunday Schools it supported were the roots of the Hyles style doing church.

I'm not sure I agree. Lee Roberson was the first to do a bus ministry, I believe, and his approach was not the post-Rice Hyles style at all: self-aggrandizement, KJVO, etc.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I wasn't trying to say bus ministries originated with Mr. Hyles. I am saying his program of ministry was rooted in it.

I'm not sure I agree. Lee Roberson was the first to do a bus ministry, I believe, and his approach was not the post-Rice Hyles style at all: self-aggrandizement, KJVO, etc.

 

[John of Japan]

I wasn't trying to say bus ministries originated with Mr. Hyles. I am saying his program of ministry was rooted in it.

Please explain, then. I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Your post #17 seemed to be a catch-all view lumping all bus ministries together.

I've seen various bus ministries which were greatly blessed.