vessels of wrath

[Iconoclast]

https://timmybrister.wordpress.com/2006/10/26/dagg-on-the-vessels-of-wrath/

Dagg on the “Vessels of Wrath”
Yesterday, I shared the basic outline of John L. Dagg’s chapter on election but stopped short of his treatment on reprobation. The following section is Dagg’s exposition on the title “vessels of wrath” (Romans 9:22) and can be found on pages 313-14 in his Manual of Theology.

Those who are not included in the election of grace, are called, in Scripture, “the rest,” and “vessels of wrath.” Why they are not included, we are as unable to explain as why the others are included; and we therefore compelled to refer the matter to the sovereignty of God, who, beyond all doubt, acts herein most wisely and righteously, though he has not explained to us the reasons for his procedure.


His absolute sovereignty, in the discrimination he makes, is expressed by Paul in these words: “He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy; and whom he will hardeneth.” The natural tendency of human depravity is such, that the heart grows harder under the general mercies which God bestows, unless he superadds to all the other benefits which he confers, the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit, by which the heart is changed.
This renewing grace he gives or withholds at his sovereign pleasure. This sovereignty, in so bestowing mercy as to soften the hard heart, is unquestionably taught by the words just quoted, however we may interpret the phrase “he hardeneth.” It is not necessary to understand these words as implying a positive act of God, exerted for the purpose of producing hardness of heart, and directed to this end. When Paul speaks of the vessels of mercy, he says that God hath “afore prepared” them for glory; but when he speaks of the vessels of wrath, as fitted for destruction, he does not say that God has fitted them for this end. As the potter, out of the same mass, makes one vessel to honor and another to dishonor; so God, out of the same mass of mankind, prepares some for glory, as vessels of mercy; while others, whatever benefits they may receive from him, being left without renewing grace, abuse the mercies which he bestows, and, growing harder by the influence of their natural depravity, are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

 

[Iconoclast]

from GTY;

Now I don't want to get too deep and I just want to give you one or two thoughts. Notice, there are vessels of wrath, at the end of verse 22, fitted to destruction. In verse 23, vessels of mercywhich He had prepared to glory. Now in the Greek you have two serious distinctions here in the Greek tense and you must recognize them. I should say in the Greek voice which is similar to English. You realize the difference between active and passive? In active, the subject does the acting and in passive the subject receives the action. Now notice, verse 22 is a passive, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. God is not the subject. The verb is passive. Verse 23, vessels of mercy which He had prepared to glory. God, there, is the subject and the verb is active.

Listen, God says I prepare vessels for glory, but vessels are prepared for destruction. And what is happening there in the Greek tense, is God is taking one step away from the responsibility of preparing a person from His creative act for hell. God doesn't take that responsibility. He says there are vessels that have been prepared for destruction. And if you study the Bible very carefully you will see that every where in Scripture the responsibility for such preparation lies right in the very heart of the man who goes to hell. Is that right? Jesus said, "You will not come to me, that you might have life." At the end of the Book of Revelation He says, "Come, and let him that is athirst come." And so God says, I fit for glory, but vessels are fitted for destruction. Judas was not created by God to occupy hell.

 

[Van]

Does anyone have a clue as to the point of this thread. The result of Adam's sin fitted humanity for destruction, for the many were made sinners, conceived in iniquity. Now how do we become vessels of mercy? God transfers us spiritually into Christ, the Redeemer. And how did God prepare beforehand? The Lamb of God was chosen before creation.

Rather than claim God acting to soften hearts, and denying God acts to harden hearts, the Biblical truth is God hardens hearts for His purpose (Romans 11:7). And some people, through the practice of sin, harden their own hearts to the point they cannot understand the gospel (Romans 1:21).

 

[HankD]

Does anyone have a clue as to the point of this thread. The result of Adam's sin fitted humanity for destruction, for the many were made sinners, conceived in iniquity. Now how do we become vessels of mercy? God transfers us spiritually into Christ, the Redeemer. And how did God prepare beforehand? The Lamb of God was chosen before creation.

Rather than claim God acting to soften hearts, and denying God acts to harden hearts, the Biblical truth is God hardens hearts for His purpose (Romans 11:7). And some people, through the practice of sin, harden their own hearts to the point they cannot understand the gospel (Romans 1:21).

Welcome to the Mugwump Baptist world Van, well said

Although I shouldn't include the smiley in so serious a subject - but I will - couldn't help myself you know.

HankD

 

[Van]

Thanks HankD, we are not alone.

 

[HankD]

Thanks HankD, we are not alone.

 

[Iconoclast]

Does anyone have a clue as to the point of this thread.

Yes I do my clueless friend. Many people who study the Bible like to study what educated people have to say about some of the teaching in this case the thread is about the vessels of Wrath.

 

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTE="Van, post: . Now how do we become vessels of mercy? God transfers us spiritually into Christ, the Redeemer. [/QUOTE]
God does not transfer anybody.
God elected a multitude of sinners in Himself.
He draws them in time.
They are translated out of the Kingdom of darkness.
.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now how do we become vessels of mercy? . And how did God prepare beforehand?

God is perfect and does not need to prepare anything
He does all His good pleasure.....
It is the vessels of mercy whom He has aforetime prepared by ordaining them to life before the world was.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Van,

The Lamb of God was chosen before creation.

.[/QUOTE]

Yes...and vessels of mercy were chosen In Him at the same time. This thread however is dealing with vessels of wrath.

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Thanks HankD, we are not alone

yes you are.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/vessels_of_mercy_and_wrath.htm

Samuel Davies said this;

The Vessels of Mercy and the
Vessels of Wrath Delineated


by Samuel Davies
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of His mercy—whom He prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:21-24

The true notion of the present world is—that it is a state of preparation for another, eternal world; and, therefore, such as we habitually are here, such shall we be forever. Mankind are now being formed, like clay in the potter's hands—some for honor and some for dishonor; some for wrath and some for glory. And as the potter does not put his vessels to their respective uses until they are finished and prepared for them—so neither are men removed from the present state, and fixed in their respective residences in the eternal world, until they are prepared, finished, and completely fitted for them. The vessels of mercy are prepared beforehand for that glory with which they shall be filled. And, on the other hand, the vessels of wrath are fitted to destruction, and fit for nothing else, before they are dashed to pieces by the iron rod of divine justice.

It is a criticism worthy to be mentioned, even in this solemn place, where I never choose to make a parade of useless learning, that the apostle uses a different form of expression, when speaking of these different sorts of people. The preparation of the vessels of mercy for glory, he ascribes to God, as his work. Hence he uses an active verb, referring expressly to God as the agent—the 'vessels of mercy, whom HE prepared in advance for glory'. But the fitting or preparing the vessels of wrath for destruction, he does not ascribe to God—but intimates that it is their own work. Hence he uses a passive particle—the 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction'—fitted by their own willful sin and impenitence, during the long-suffering of God towards them, which had a tendency to lead them to repentance.

Vessels of His wrath! How terribly emphatic is this phrase! Vessels dreadfully capacious of divine wrath! to be filled to the brim—with that burning liquid!

But how beautifully significant is the metaphor—vessels of His mercy! vessels formed, prepared, finished, adorned by the gentle and skillful hand of divine mercy! Vessels capacious of mercy, and to be filled, to overflow—with glory!

The gracious and sovereign God, who might justly have dashed these vessels of WRATH to pieces as soon as they became marred clay in his omnipotent hands, endures or bears with them with much long-suffering; as well as with vessels of mercy! He bears with them, and he has with you—for days, and months, and years, notwithstanding their daring provocations, and ungrateful abuse of his patience; which nothing but divine patience could bear with so long! But all this time, they contracted more and more filth and pollution; they became every day less fit for their Master's use, and rendered themselves more and more fit for destruction, and fit for nothing else!

And shall these vessels of wrath answer no valuable use in the great house of the universe? Will they serve to furnish out no apartment of this vast building? Will they be of no use in this numerous family of reasonable creatures? Yes, they will furnish out the regions of hell—a place as necessary and useful in the universe, as it is now constituted, as prisons and bedlams upon the earth. They will serve as public and terribly illustrious monuments of the divine power and justice, and the righteous resentments of the righteous and holy God against sin. They will serve as loud warnings to all worlds, to deter them from that destructive evil.

And thus they will answer a valuable, and even a benevolent, end in the creation, and contribute to the public good; as the execution of criminals tends to guard the laws from violation, and so promote the good of society. They will serve, as my text informs you, "show God's wrath and make his power known!" Their destruction will illustriously display the glory of these perfections. The flames of hell will burn dreadfully bright—to reflect a dreadful—and yet amiable splendor upon them! And it is for this dreadful but righteous end, among others, that God now endures them with so much long-suffering: that his perfections, and the honor of his government, may be the more illustriously displayed—in the execution of deserved punishment upon them.

But the vessels of MERCY are intended and prepared for nobler uses. On them God intends to display the glory, the riches of the glory of his more gentle attributes—his love and grace. With them he intends to furnish out the many mansions of his heavenly house. By them he intends to let all worlds see what glorious vessels he can form, not only of the dust—but of the shattered and polluted fragments of human nature, broken and polluted by the fall of Adam, and by their own sin as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

Samuel Davies pt2;

2. Inquire whether your tempers and dispositions are not infernal and diabolical, and such as render you fit for destruction, and for nothing else?

Are your hearts destitute of the love of God? "No," you answer; "we thank God we have never been so bad as that!"


But if you love God, then why is it—that you have so few affectionate thoughts of him?


Why is it—that you do not study to please him in all things, and delight in his service?


If you love God, why is it that you do not strive to keep his commandments, which is the grand decisive test of love?

Alas! instead of loving him, are not your hearts disaffected to him?

As evidences of this—may I not produce your dislike to serious thoughts of him—your aversion to his service—your disregard to his will as the rule of your conduct—and your headlong propensity to follow your own pleasure?


Do not the murmurings and insurrections of your hearts against him and his painful dispensations; your uneasy, rebellious spirit under his providence; your aversion to his service—do not these show that you are really disaffected to him?


Now this is the very temper of hell! This is the constitution of a devil—the very worst ingredient in that infernal disposition; and, therefore, unless this temper is changed, you must dwell with devils forever! It is only just and fit—that all the enemies of God should be shut up together in one vast prison! It is unfit that rebels and traitors should always run at large, or mingle with loyal subjects. Alas! sirs, a soul without the love of God—is devilized already, ripe for destruction, and fit for nothing else!

Again, Are there not some of you who have no pleasure in private devotion, no delight in conversing with God in his ordinances?


The posture of humble worshipers at the throne of grace—is not easy and agreeable to you; and hence that you have prayerless families and prayerless closets;



and if you join in public worship once a week, it is a mere customary formality.

You cannot bear to wean your thoughts and tongues from temporal affairs—in the few hours devoted to the service of God, though they make up but one day in seven.

You do not delight in pious conversation—but it strikes you dumb, like the man without the wedding garment.


Well, in the infernal regions, you will have as little of this pious exercise, as you could wish! The patient will then be hopeless and incurable—and therefore no farther means will be used with him. Then you will no more be troubled with prayers, bibles, sermons, pious conversation, or the tedious hours of Sunday worship.

And, since you have no taste for such exercises, is it not fit you should be sent into those ungodly regions, where you shall never again be employed in them?

Again, Are not the minds of some of you defiled with all manner of sin and moral pollutions?

And do not those render you fit only for that region of corruption and impurity?

Do you not indulge an angry, contentious, unforgiving, malicious temper?

Well, that is the very temper of hell—and renders you fit for it! Nay, these outrageous passions, when broke loose from restraint, will create a hell in your own hearts, and not only expose you to punishment, according to justice—but become the ingredients of your punishment, according to the course of nature!

Do not some of you indulge yourselves in backbiting, and all the base, malignant arts of defamation, and perhaps are fire-brands in the neighborhood where you live?

Well, in hell you shall have enough of this work; and while you indulge this spirit, you are preparing yourselves for that land of universal hostility and revenge.

Is not cursing and swearing the familiar language of some of you? Well, this is the language of hell—and you are now practicing the infernal dialect, and preparing to converse with the fiends below in their own style, in the regions of imprecation and blasphemy!

Do not some of you live in the practice of the works of the devil; that is, of those works to which he tempts you, and in which he has persisted, who was a rebellious sinner from the beginning? Are you not then fit for that everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels? Even the gentle lips of Jesus himself would tell you, as he did the Jews—that "you are of your father the devil," John 8:44, since you habitually do his works! And is it not fit that you should be doomed to the society of your infernal father?

Do you not find that your hearts are habitually hard and insensible?

Or if you have some kind of repentance, it is only a servile horror, extorted remorse, and involuntary pangs of desperate agony.

This is the very kind of repentance in hell, where they still love sin—and yet cannot but upbraid and torment themselves, because they have ruined themselves by indulging it!


Conscience tortures them with the keenest reflections; but they feel no loving sincere relentings; no godly sorrows, proceeding from a sense of the intrinsic vileness and baseness of sin—and from a sincere, unselfish love to God and holiness.

Hence their repentance is only a punishment—but has no tendency to their reformation. And is not this the very nature of your repentance at present?

But I need not dwell long upon this inquiry. It is enough to tell you, in short, that if you are still in your natural state; if you still retain that temper which is natural to you as the degenerate sons of Adam, without any supernatural change; that estrangement from God; that disaffection to him; that carnality and earthly-mindedness; that blindness and insensibility about divine things; that carnal presumption, security, and love of lawless pleasure: I say, if this is still your prevailing temper—then you are not prepared or fit for the heavenly inheritance; for in order to be heirs of that, you must be born again of God. But you are fitted for destruction; for by nature—you are children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3, and while you continue such, you must be vessels of wrath.


Therefore bring the matter to a short issue, by this decisive inquiry: "Have I ever been born again? Have I ever experienced such a mighty change in the temper of my mind, as may, with propriety, be called a new birth or a new creation? For 'if any man is in Christ—he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new!' 2 Corinthians 5:17. Have I thus been renewed in the spirit of my mind? Or am I still the same old man—with my old affections and lusts?"

 

[Iconoclast]

1. Consider your present dangerous situation! You hang over the pit of destruction by the slender thread of life, held up only by the hand of an angry God—just as we hold a spider, or some poisonous insect, over a fire, ready to throw in it! You are ripe for destruction, and therefore in danger every day, every hour, every moment—of falling into it! You are as fit for destruction—as a murderer is fit for the gallows, or a gangrened limb is fit to be cut off. Such polluted vessels of wrath must be thrown out of the way into some dark corner in hell—that they may no more encumber or disgrace the more honorable apartments of the universe. And is this a situation in which it befits you to be merry, and mirthful, and thoughtless, and eager after the trifles of time? Oh does it not befit you rather—to be on your knees at the throne of grace, and vigorously pressing into the kingdom of God?

2. Reflect with how much long-suffering God has endured you, notwithstanding all your audacious and repeated provocations! One would think that one day's sinning against so holy and gracious a God, by a creature so deeply obliged to him—would make your case desperate, and that the evening of such a day would be the hour of your execution! But he has patiently borne with you for days, for months, for years, perhaps for scores of years! And all this time he has followed you with his blessings every moment, and granted you the means of preparation for glory. And yet you have been thoughtless, disobedient, ungrateful, rebellious still. How justly, then, may he inflict punishment upon you! And how industriously will his goodness and severity, his mercy and justice, be displayed in his treatment of you! What could you have desired more, in point of time, opportunity, persuasives—than you have enjoyed? Will it not then appear evident, that your destruction is entirely of yourself, and that, as I have told you before, God and his throne will be guiltless forever!

3. Consider how dreadful will be your punishment, if you should perish at last by your present willful negligence! My text tells you what will be the design of your punishment; it will be to show the wrath of God, and make his power known! Such will be your punishment, as will be fit to show that it is almighty power which inflicts it, and that it is an almighty God who is angry with you! It will be his professed design to display the dreadful glory of his vindictive attributes upon you, particularly his justice, as the supreme Magistrate of the universe! His justice deserves to be displayed; for divine justice is not that ugly, grim, horrible thing, which criminals imagine. In a ruler, especially in the supreme and universal ruler, justice is not only a majestic and solemn—but it is a lovely, amiable, ingratiating attribute, essential to his character, and to the public good. And so it appears to all competent judges; that is, to all who are not self-flattering criminals, and therefore recipients of divine justice. The display of this attribute, therefore, upon proper objects, is necessary, to give a full view of God's nature to the world; to represent him as he is.

 

[Van]

Post #8 reveals who is making unbiblical claims.

Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
1) Therefore the "God does not transfer anybody." demonstrates clueless claims.
2) Romans 6:3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

The denial that God puts us into Christ demonstrates a denial of scripture after scripture.

No verse says or suggests God elected a multitude of sinners before creation. He chose us in Him before creation, but that election was corporate. When God chose Christ as His redeemer, He also corporately chose the target group of His redemption plan, believers, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says when we were chosen for salvation individually, we were chosen through faith in the truth, and thus were chosen during our lifetime. It is a lock.

 

[Iconoclast]

Post #8 reveals who is making unbiblical claims.

Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
1) Therefore the "God does not transfer anybody." demonstrates clueless claims.
2) Romans 6:3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

The denial that God puts us into Christ demonstrates a denial of scripture after scripture.

No verse says or suggests God elected a multitude of sinners before creation. He chose us in Him before creation, but that election was corporate. When God chose Christ as His redeemer, He also corporately chose the target group of His redemption plan, believers, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says when we were chosen for salvation individually, we were chosen through faith in the truth, and thus were chosen during our lifetime. It is a lock.

Your misuse of the verses demonstrates an inability to discuss truth. A total inability. Repeating your error like a parrot is not going to have it become truth.....col1 is speaking of which Kingdom a person is dealing with....not what took place before the world was.....which you deny yet again as you do not grasp the verse in 2 thess. either.....no surprise here.

 

[Van]

More insults, more ad hominems, same ol, same ol.

I do not misuse verses, I just accept they mean what the say.

First you say no one is transferred, then rather than say "oops" you change the subject and hurl insults.

The doctrines you parrot have been shown to conflict with scripture, not once or twice, but over and over.

Here is the biblical truth:

1) Everyone is conceived in a separated from God, spiritually dead sinful state. Our nature from the get go is corrupt, we are vessels of wrath. When Adam sinned, the consequence was we were fitted for destruction.

2) God chose Christ to be His "lamb of God" before creation as His Redeemer. When God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him.
The reason this (Ephesians 1:4) election has to be corporate is that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches our election for salvation is through faith in the truth. No amount of insults or obfuscation will alter biblical truth.

 

[HankD]

"Van,

Yes...and vessels of mercy were chosen In Him at the same time. This thread however is dealing with vessels of wrath.

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

For such an important doctrine the scriptures you cited should be shown:

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sure none of us think God does things willy-nilly but always with good reason.

So, considering the last 2 scriptures indicating the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "ordained to this condemnation".
FWIW, I agree with the intended purpose (of course) - to show His wrath and make known His power but disagree with "being left to act in their sin".

fitted - katartidzo - A very wide scope word - I believe the Friberg Lexicon (02810-2) is best - prepare, make ready, complete or perfect.

Even other lexicon definitions require action on a pre-existing condition; UBS - mend, repair; Liddell-Scott - Restore, put in order again.

It would appear that God had to do something to these vessels of wrath for them to show up in the time continuum in order to glorify Himself with His vindication of their wickedness.

It does seem to be a minor observation but in my estimation it leads to questions involving the character of God and His purpose(s) of His creation of mankind which is holy ground to be carefully tread upon IMO of course.

That these vessels were molded (my own translation term) by Him to ultimately reveal His power and glory, presumably in the final judgment.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

HankD

 

[Van]

Hi HankD, I believe we disagree as to exactly what the verses you cited teach.
1 Timothy 5:21 would seem to be non-germane. It certainly does not support individual election before creation.

Matthew 25:34, the "you" is a general term, and was intended to apply to any believer. And "from the foundation of the world refers to the interval of time since or after creation, not before.

Ephesians 1:5 teaches we were predestined for adoption once we were placed in Christ, no before.

We agree, I think, that everyone was fitted for destruction as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Jude 1:4 teaches that God put in scripture long before that those who turn from God are condemned. And the word is "marked out" not ordained.

Since the wages of sin is death, to be made sinners certainly fits us for destruction. God did not need to deal with every individual off spring of Adam, only establish that any off spring would be made a sinner and be conceived in iniquity. Note we were by nature, children of wrath, pointing to the consequence of being born "in Adam."

 

[Iconoclast]

="HankD,

Hello Hank....good imput.

So, considering the last 2 scriptures indicating the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "ordained to this condemnation".
FWIW, I agree with the intended purpose (of course) - to show His wrath and make known His power but disagree with "being left to act in their sin".

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Apart from God's enabling grace vessels of wrath will express their sin nature daily. When the confession uses this expression , it is simply saying that God as Creator is under no obligation to do anything for them except to be their righteous judge.
That He sets his love on the elect is purely MERCY. God does not prohibit the vessels of wrath from seeking Him.....they do not want to, even when the gospel is preached to them.....they are truth suppressors.
I am not sure what you object to here? The natural default position of the sinner....is to sin;
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

eccl8
11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Van,

More insults, more ad hominems, same ol, same ol.

none of the above. just an accurate portrayal of your denials. just observations.

I do not misuse verses, I just accept they mean what the say.

No...you intentionally wrest them out and state novelties.
The topic of the OP. is vessels of wrath, but you use it as a platform to restate you false views on everything else.

First you say no one is transferred, then rather than say "oops" you change the subject and hurl insults.

no one is transferred "spiritually" as you suggest.....We were elected individually before time....vessels of wrath, were not.

You ignore what I said about be translated from the Kingdom of darkness, to the Kingdom of light...which takes place at regeneration...