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vessels of wrath
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Iconoclast,
I am going to offer a suggestion, and I hope you take it in the spirit it was intended. You would be far better off to carefully read and understand those you quote and then interact with those here in your own words rather than pulling out quotes isolated from this discussion. It is a matter of understanding and arguing first person your views rather than one of eloquence (even if you less articulate than John Dagg, you need to argue your own understanding).
As a general rule of thumb, when you are discussing or debating within a Christian context you do not need to present the text of Scripture if it is of significant length. It is taken for granted, and frankly a matter of common respect, that all assume those involved have access to Scripture.
Likewise, when you refer to paragraphs of another author you can simply state the author’s position and provide a reference (don’t even worry about format). For example, if you were to reference a sermon by Samuel Davies you could simply make your point and say “See “The Vessels of Mercy and the Vessels of Wrath Delineated” by Samuel Davies, found in Sermons on Important Subjects Vol. II, 1849. Or, better yet, provide a link to your reference).
I’m saying this because there is no need for you to copy and paste so much material here. You are articulate. You have your own understanding. And we would much rather deal with you than a dead author that can’t expound on their ideas if questioned. When we read Dagg, or Davies, or Pink…who ever…through you then we are reading an author twice distilled.
Again, I am telling you this for your benefit, not to offend in any way. We have our disagreements, and I have opinions that I will not relinquish very easily, but that does not change the fact that as a brother I wish to see you grow. I think you would do better to spend more time with the materials you quote so that you can offer them out of your own understanding and point directly to Scripture rather than the author who helped you come to that understanding.
Van, honey, suga-pie, sweetie-cakes...many on here have tried to help you with your misapplying of Matthew 23:13, yet you keep repeating this same psychobabble. This is not a Cal v. Armin thing, as both sides have tried to help you, but you are just like someone else who used to post on here, knowing it all, yet knowing nothing.
I will borrow from Darth Vader..."It appears (this former member's) spirit is strong within you."
JonC
Most here are too lazy to open a link, or listen to a sermon....so I put what I believe is relevant...
The scriptures are the issue, not me, or what I think, or you and what you think....
Those on here cannot answer the quotes and the attempts to do so are readily exposed as without merit or substance, so they no longer interact with the quotes.
[Edited: personal attacks and false allegations removed]
says you....I have observed a totally different dynamic here.
Most here are too lazy to open a link, or listen to a sermon....so I put what I believe is relevant...
The scriptures are the issue, not me, or what I think, or you and what you think....
The dead authors live in their writings.... they are my companions more than most on here.
Those on here cannot answer the quotes and the attempts to do so are readily exposed as without merit or substance, so they no longer interact with the quotes.
Then ignore my posts...and those who enjoy them can read them.
[Edited: personal attacks and false allegations removed]
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I agree that "dead authors" live through their writings. But what is more important than these authors are the truths that they convey. I believe the intent of these authors was always to explain, therefore our duty to them is to understand. Again, it was just a suggestion that I thought would be a benefit to you. You have again taken my words in a different way than I intended. Proverbs 12:1.
And you give people less credit than they deserve. Just because people disagree with you does not mean they do not care about the topic.
Bluefalcon
Member
So how many would agree that God did nothing to make them vessels of wrath, that their becoming fit for destruction was their own doing?
I would disagree with that statement.
Spot on Hank.
Just read Matthew 23:13 folks, and take it to mean what it says. No one is misapplying it. LOL
As to the poster who babbles about Romans 5:19 being off the topic of how we became children of wrath, one can only pray.
Because we were made sinners, God's hand was in it from start to finish.
Just read Matthew 23:13 folks, and take it to mean what it says. No one is misapplying it. LOL
As to the poster who babbles about Romans 5:19 being off the topic of how we became children of wrath, one can only pray.
Because we were made sinners, God's hand was in it from start to finish.
[JonC
And we do understand them....
[snip]
[snip]
No one said the "authors" were more important than the truth they convey...that is your "twist"....
.
And we do understand them....
[snip]
A fine verse...but you are in no position to offer reproof [snip]
[snip]
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Icon,
I was offering you something I thought would be a benefit to you. You don't have to take it but get off your "high horse" and deal with the topics instead of imagining some agenda against you and your "people".
Anything I have edited from you, and a couple of others, was reported prior to any edit. Anything deleted was simply removed from public view. In other words, the Admins can see the original posts. I did this because it does seem that there are a few people trying to control this board, even at the expense of their integrity.
The other day you said I meant something that I did not. When I explained to you what I did mean you rejected that in favor of your own imagination. I can help ignorance, but not willful ignorance. You are not being honest here. You imagine some agenda being exercised against you and your "people", but I believe most here see through the lies and know otherwise.
Bluefalcon
Member
So you all disagree with most of those quotes cited by Iconoclast? Anyway, if God made them vessels of wrath, or if God fitted them for destruction, that is not what that verse teaches!
22 ]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Not sure what Bluefalcon believes is not taught by this passage. Vessels of wrath, would indicate vessels who have stored up wrath, and thus the unsaved are vessels of wrath. By being "made sinners" they were prepared for destruction.
Thus God is enduring the age of grace, withholding His wrath upon sinful humanity, to provide sinful humanity to opportunity of becoming vessels of mercy. But we all started out by nature as children of wrath.
Now if some other understanding of what this passage teaches exists. lets here it.
Not sure what Bluefalcon believes is not taught by this passage. Vessels of wrath, would indicate vessels who have stored up wrath, and thus the unsaved are vessels of wrath. By being "made sinners" they were prepared for destruction.
Thus God is enduring the age of grace, withholding His wrath upon sinful humanity, to provide sinful humanity to opportunity of becoming vessels of mercy. But we all started out by nature as children of wrath.
Now if some other understanding of what this passage teaches exists. lets here it.
Hello BF,
when you consider the positive side of this section it might help to understand what we would consider the less positive part of the section[vessels fitted to destruction;
http://preceptaustin.org/romans_922-24.htm
Ever wonder if individuals had been chosen before creation, why He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. But if God chose us in Him refers to our corporate election as the target group (believers) of His redemption plan, then God would still need to choose us individually after we placed our faith in the truth.
Ever wonder why God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God?
Ever wonder how, if you had been chosen individually before creation, you were once not a people, how you had not received mercy, but now have received mercy. How many verses actually teach individual election during our lifetime. Lots of them! How many teach individual election for salvation before creation, none of them.
Ever wonder why God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God?
Ever wonder how, if you had been chosen individually before creation, you were once not a people, how you had not received mercy, but now have received mercy. How many verses actually teach individual election during our lifetime. Lots of them! How many teach individual election for salvation before creation, none of them.
Van,
Another off topic post???? Are you running a special on them this week?
No....I do not wonder about why God does what he does because He is God and we are not.
Furthermore.... if anyone understands this verse correctly they would never desire to twist it like silly putty to ascribe a novel meaning to it that is anti-biblical.
When someone twists or as the scripture describes it ...wrests the scriptures....they no longer have the scriptures, but a perversion of them.
No...you do not understand this quoted portion from Hosea either....so you wonder like these folks were said to have done....;
hab1;
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Not when the verses are understood....at that point the confusion and fog go away.
Another off topic post???? Are you running a special on them this week?
No....I do not wonder about why God does what he does because He is God and we are not.
Furthermore.... if anyone understands this verse correctly they would never desire to twist it like silly putty to ascribe a novel meaning to it that is anti-biblical.
When someone twists or as the scripture describes it ...wrests the scriptures....they no longer have the scriptures, but a perversion of them.
there is no such thing as you describe here....
this whole thought process is D.O.A.
No....because a right understanding of the verse does not leave any room for speculation.
No...you do not understand this quoted portion from Hosea either....so you wonder like these folks were said to have done....;
hab1;
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Not when the verses are understood....at that point the confusion and fog go away.
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Well, once again we see the denial of scripture after scripture. Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says God chose people for salvation through faith in the truth. Now there are a few translations where the text has been adulterated, but stick with the NASB, NKJV, and LEB.
And folks, post #57 addresses an argument found in one of the links posted. Somehow the link was not off topic, but the rebuttal was. Go figure.
And folks, post #57 addresses an argument found in one of the links posted. Somehow the link was not off topic, but the rebuttal was. Go figure.
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