vessels of wrath

[JonC]

Folks, it was suggested my repetitive suggestion we end discussion because we are generating more heat than light was somehow inappropriate. The unity of the body is something all Christians are required to nurture by wise behavior. We are to turn away from divisive people. And we are to keep ourselves in check.

I do not know who those "folks" are to whom you continually appeal, Van, but when you make claims and arguments about what other people "really" believe up against what they tell you they believe then you cannot but generate heat.

For my part, there is no divisiveness. It seems that you are responding out of frustration because those whom you wish to argue are not in truth believing what you want to make them out to believe. In other words, you have created a strawman and can't find anyone to assume that role. So now you pretend that they are divisive (as if they are arguing against their true beliefs just to somehow invalidate your invalid argument).

Brother, just argue your position and let other's argue theirs. That would solve much of the "divisiveness" here.

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, I have absolutely no interest in playing your word games. Draw does not mean what you say it means. When used metaphorically as in John 6:44 and John 12:32 it means attract. It does not mean irresistible grace. Not all people drawn (attracted) come to Jesus. Matthew 23:13, and the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

The fallacy you are pushing is of the "all dogs are mammals" therefore "all mammals are dogs" sort. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn, but all drawn do not come to Jesus.

By the numbers folks,

1) Every person is conceived in iniquity, we were all made sinners, thus vessels of wrath, thus had not received mercy, thus had not been chosen for salvation. Ephesians 2:1-3.

2) God calls people through the gospel, and those exposed to the gospel are therefore drawn by the lovingkindness of God. Jeremiah 31:3.

3) Therefore, since the gospel includes the suffering and crucification of Christ, for all mankind, everyone exposed is drawn to Christ.

This is not what JonC believes, it is what God's word teaches.

Again, Van, I do not know these "folks" to whom you appeal.

But I also have no interest in playing word games. We can disagree about the meanings of words, but you are wrong to attribute a belief I deny to me. The passage that I provided says that all who are drawn are effectually drawn (they are raised in Christ). If you simply don't like using the word "drawn" then call it "attract".

And ..."folks"....ignore the foolish comments about what I believe coming from behind the curtain. If you want to know what I believe, ask me, not Van.

I believe in all three of those points in Van's posts (the ones he so foolishly declares I disbelieve). I just do not believe that those two verses constitute the whole gospel. All are drawn in the sense that all are called through the gospel (what I called a "general call"). But not all are effectually called/drawn to salvation.

 

[JonC]

Back to the OP:

We were all once objects deserving of God’s wrath. Paul tells us in Roman’s 5 that it was while we were God’s enemies that we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son.

But when Scripture speaks of vessels of wrath prepared for destruction contrasted against vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, whom He has called – not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles, the latter group is not out of the former. Both were deserving of wrath, but those “vessels of wrath” were “prepared for destruction”. Those “vessels of mercy” were “prepared beforehand for glory”. They were the ones “whom He has called”. And they were called “not from the Jews only but from the Gentiles”.

If we let Scripture interpret Scripture, then I believe that there is absolutely no way that we can deny that God effectually draws a people to Himself. The “vessels of wrath” are not merely those deserving wrath as enemies of God, but those who are prepared for destruction. They exclude those “prepared beforehand for glory.”

 

[Van]

The passage that I provided says that all who are drawn are effectually drawn (they are raised in Christ).

This is absolutely false and misleading. Just read the verse!

John 6:44 (NASB) No one can come to be unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Does this say everyone drawn is raised? Nope It says in order to come to Jesus a person must be drawn, and those who do come to Jesus will be raised on the last day.

 

[JonC]

This is absolutely false and misleading. Just read the verse!

John 6:44 (NASB) No one can come to be unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Does this say everyone drawn is raised? Nope It says in order to come to Jesus a person must be drawn, and those who do come to Jesus will be raised on the last day.

Then your interpretation would be rendered: "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...Just like the Father draws every man...and I'll raise him up on the last day." Drawing, of course, becomes meaningless in this verse as you could easily substitute the work of the Father with anything common to man.

Your interpretation simply does not work, Van.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi JonC, I have absolutely no interest in playing your word games. Draw does not mean what you say it means. When used metaphorically as in John 6:44 and John 12:32 it means attract. It does not mean irresistible grace. Not all people drawn (attracted) come to Jesus. Matthew 23:13, and the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

The fallacy you are pushing is of the "all dogs are mammals" therefore "all mammals are dogs" sort. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn, but all drawn do not come to Jesus.

By the numbers folks,

1) Every person is conceived in iniquity, we were all made sinners, thus vessels of wrath, thus had not received mercy, thus had not been chosen for salvation. Ephesians 2:1-3.

2) God calls people through the gospel, and those exposed to the gospel are therefore drawn by the lovingkindness of God. Jeremiah 31:3.

3) Therefore, since the gospel includes the suffering and crucification of Christ, for all mankind, everyone exposed is drawn to Christ.

4) How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.

You have clearly missed the verses once again.....Mt 23 yet again...this is no surprise . When you set aside plainly revealed truth.....error must follow....and it has.
Jonc was trying to work with you and give you the benefit of the doubt....lol...it looks like you reject that also......shocking!
You cannot build solid doctrine by allegorical ideas from the parables.....but you press on ,over and over......searching for the "folks" who only seem to be in your mind.

Then your interpretation would be rendered: "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...Just like the Father draws every man...and I'll raise him up on the last day." Drawing, of course, becomes meaningless in this verse as you could easily substitute the work of the Father with anything common to man.

Your interpretation simply does not work, Van.

That is the best part.....if the interpretation does not work

He just adds or takes words until he feels it does

 

[Van]

Then your interpretation would be rendered: "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...Just like the Father draws every man...and I'll raise him up on the last day." Drawing, of course, becomes meaningless in this verse as you could easily substitute the work of the Father with anything common to man.

Your interpretation simply does not work, Van.

Sir, I can read. I know what it says. It is obviously what John 6:44 says.

Drawing (attracting) is not meaningless, unless a person is drawn (attracted) they will not put their faith in Christ.

My view is the one found in the lexicons. My understanding of John 12:32 is the one found in nearly all translation, all meaning all people that become aware Jesus suffered and died for them.

John 6:44 (NASB) No one can come to be unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Does this say everyone drawn is raised? Nope It says in order to come to Jesus a person must be drawn, and those who do come to Jesus will be raised on the last day.

 

[JonC]

Sir, I can read. I know what it says. It is obviously what John 6:44 says.

Drawing (attracting) is not meaningless, unless a person is drawn (attracted) they will not put their faith in Christ.

My view is the one found in the lexicons. My understanding of John 12:32 is the one found in nearly all translation, all meaning all people that become aware Jesus suffered and died for them.

First, Van, I work for a living. Don't call me "sir" .

Second, when I look up ἕλκω, I get "literally - to drag". This word is used in John three times. Twice to describe what God does to men, and once to describe what the disciples did to the net full of fish. Unless you are supposing that the disciples had difficulty "attracting" the nets into the boat because of the great number of fish then you are changing the word to fit your theories. I simply don't see why John would use ἕλκω to mean "attract" and then shift to it's literal meaning in John 21.

I understand that I may not be the most articulate person on this board. I have lost "friends" over the years because of misunderstandings and assumptions...perhaps due to my lack of articulation. My request is that you accept my position as mine, not that you take it as yours. If you want to speak of what I believe, then I will demand accuracy. And I expect the same of you if I misstate what you believe. And yes, we disagree.

 

[Van]

JonC, I already said repeatedly, when the word translated draw is used metaphorically. So all this stuff about its literal meaning is just sidestepping.

You may claim John did not use "draw" metaphorically, but the lexicons disagree. They say he did.

And you may claim John meant all kinds of people, instead of all people. Again, that is the view of agenda driven commentators seeking to turn attract into compel.

 

[JonC]

JonC, I already said repeatedly, when the word translated draw is used metaphorically. So all this stuff about its literal meaning is just sidestepping.

You may claim John did not use "draw" metaphorically, but the lexicons disagree. They say he did.

And you may claim John meant all kinds of people, instead of all people. Again, that is the view of agenda driven commentators seeking to turn attract into compel.

The lexicon that I used didn't agree at all. And Paul, speaking of God's effectual call, directs that call to "all kinds of people" instead of all people (Romans 9). Why do you think that John would not be doing the same?

 

[Van]

Which lexicon does not have a metaphorical meaning? Can you link to it?

1. to draw, drag off
   
   
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; John 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Song of Songs 1:4; Jeremiah 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

 

[JonC]

Which lexicon does not have a metaphorical meaning? Can you link to it?

It was built into a program (didn't pull out a hard book). Which one says "attract"? "Drawing by an inward power" seems to fit our meaning well.

 

[Van]

Did you look at Jeremiah 31:3 or Song of Songs 1:4. We are not talking about a supernatural tractor beam. We are talking about a human response to someone who sacrificed His life for them.

 

[JonC]

Did you look at Jeremiah 31:3 or Song of Songs 1:4. We are not talking about a supernatural tractor beam. We are talking about a human response to someone who sacrificed His life for them.

By your definition we are not talking about "human response". By your lexicon definition, "draw" means to "drag", but metaphorically to "drag by an inward power." This is NOT "come by a human response". And I would add that this "dragging by an inward power" is one of loving kindness (Jeremiah 31:3) and not compulsion. Again, the only time "compulsion" has come into play has been in your argument against it.

 

[Van]

Hi JonC, I provided your quote. (My [JonC] position is that God draws men to himself, and men drawn cannot but believe. And I do not mean this as "compel". Men are not dragged unwillingly, they are drawn.)

And why did you change draw by inward power to drag by inward power?

We are talking about human response. See Jeremiah 31:3, Song of Songs 1:4

Sometime back you questioned whether "draw" mean attract.

7. To attract; to cause to turn towards itself; to engage; as, a beauty or a popular speaker draws the eyes of an assembly, or draws their attention.

This is one of ways "draw" is defined in the KJV Dictionary.

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, I provided your quote.

And why did you change draw by inward power to drag by inward power?

We are talking about human response. See Jeremiah 31:3, Song of Songs 1:4

Sometime back you questions whether "draw" mean attract. This is one of ways "draw" is defined in the KJV Dictionary.

I didn't notice ("drag" was the literal definition..."draw" vs. "drag" by an inward power...I was concentrating on the "inward power" being of God and not man...not whether it was "draw" or "drag"...but I appreciate the correction).

The verse indicates, then, that we were "drawn by an inward power"...but what is this power? Is it our own "human response"? Not according to Scripture - it is God's "drawing". God "draws us with an inward power". Does this mean that God attracts us? You could use that, but only if you are speaking of "attract" in such a way as to include an inherent "inward power".

Here you:

1. take "draw" remove it from a connection to it's literal definition ("drag"),
2. replace it with "draw" as a metaphoric definition ("draw with an inward power")
3. and then consult an English dictionary to make "draw" read "attract" ("attract with an inward power").
4. get rid of God's hand in the process ("with an inward power" being the work of the Father)
5. reduce the original "draw with an inward power" down to "attract"
6. and add "human response" to conclude that God attracts all men, who come as a human response.

And you denounce other interpretations as taking liberties with the text.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps God drawing people means exactly that? Maybe we do not have to change it to a metaphor, and then exchange part of the metaphor for another word, and then add "human response". Maybe if we pause a moment, simply looking at the "inward power" being (according to Scripture) of the Father and not a "human response" we can simply move on and know that God drew us to Himself.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

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[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning

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