VESSELS OF WRATH

[SavedByGrace]

What were the words of Christ concerning who could come to Him?

Who gives the ones saved to Christ according to Him?

I don’t see how John 3 over rides other statements of the Christ.

Jesus Christ CHOSE Twelve Disciples, that included Judas, who rebelled aganist Jesus Christ!

Luke 6:13, "At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and CHOSE twelve of them to be Apostles"

ἐκλέγομαι, "to pick out, to select"

Jesus Christ also said that He was going to the Cross for the sins of Judas, as in Luke's Account of the Lord's Supper, a fact also admitted by the Reformed commentators, Matthew Henry and John Gill!

 

[agedman]

Jesus Christ CHOSE Twelve Disciples, that included Judas, who rebelled aganist Jesus Christ!

Luke 6:13, "At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and CHOSE twelve of them to be Apostles"

ἐκλέγομαι, "to pick out, to select"

Jesus Christ also said that He was going to the Cross for the sins of Judas, as in Luke's Account of the Lord's Supper, a fact also admitted by the Reformed commentators, Matthew Henry and John Gill!

I do not dispute that Christ shed His blood for the whole of creation.

However, that isn't the real point.

You post that John 3 refutes what it does not. For if it did, then other parts of John would become invalid.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I do not dispute that Christ shed His blood for the whole of creation

so you don't believe that the L in TULIP is taught in the Bible?

 

[agedman]

so you don't believe that the L in TULIP is taught in the Bible?

Certainly there is a limit to who is atoned.

The OT atonement sacrifice was not just that of the blood, but included other measures.

The blood was shed and sprinkled for all in the land (Israel) just as it was that Christ shed His blood and sprinkled the archetype altar in the Holy Temple in which the earthly was a mere copy. Such was shed for all creation (kosmos taken in the most literal way).

What limits the effectiveness of the atonement is the same condition that limited such in the OT. Belief. (John 3)

This (belief) separated those who were in torment and those in paradise (remember the parable of Lazarus and rich man). All of all ages are redeemed in the same manner.

The death and resurrection are only beneficial to those who believe. It is then that I can also agree that the other statements found in John are consistent with John 3. "All the Father gives me ... "

Therefore, "And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,"

How does such "faith" come? "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

Again, "All the Father gives me ..."

This in no measure limits the general appeal made to all, but the Scriptures teach that ALL turn away.

So, God presents that there are those selected in which He will redeem according to His divine purpose who are appointed to suffering for His sake and for that person's good.

Hope this long post helps.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Certainly there is a limit to who is atoned.

The OT atonement sacrifice was not just that of the blood, but included other measures.

The blood was shed and sprinkled for all in the land (Israel) just as it was that Christ shed His blood and sprinkled the archetype altar in the Holy Temple in which the earthly was a mere copy. Such was shed for all creation (kosmos taken in the most literal way).

What limits the effectiveness of the atonement is the same condition that limited such in the OT. Belief. (John 3)

This (belief) separated those who were in torment and those in paradise (remember the parable of Lazarus and rich man). All of all ages are redeemed in the same manner.

The death and resurrection are only beneficial to those who believe. It is then that I can also agree that the other statements found in John are consistent with John 3. "All the Father gives me ... "

Therefore, "And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,"

How does such "faith" come? "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

Again, "All the Father gives me ..."

This in no measure limits the general appeal made to all, but the Scriptures teach that ALL turn away.

So, God presents that there are those selected in which He will redeem according to His divine purpose who are appointed to suffering for His sake and for that person's good.

Hope this long post helps.

Jesus Christ Died for the sins of the entire human race, from Adam to the last man, including Judas, It is only those who "repent and believe in the Gospel", that will be saved.

 

[Dave G]

God very much LOVES the entire human race

Psalms 5:5-6.
Psalms 11:5.
Romans 9:13.
Malachi 1:1-3.
Galatians 1:8-9.
Matthew 25:41
Psalms 37:22.
Matthew 7:21-23.
Revelation 14:10.

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded." ( Joshua 10:40 ).

" And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." ( Genesis 38:7 ).

" And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also." ( Genesis 38:10 ).

" And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." ( Leviticus 10:2 ).

" And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God." ( 1 Chronicles 13:10 ).

" And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." ( Numbers 16:35 ).

" And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses." ( 2 Kings 19:35 ).

" God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies." ( Nahum 1:2 ).



No SBG, He does not.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Psalms 5:5-6.
Psalms 11:5.
Romans 9:13.
Malachi 1:1-3.
Galatians 1:8-9.
Matthew 25:41
Psalms 37:22.
Matthew 7:21-23.
Revelation 14:10.

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded." ( Joshua 10:40 ).

" And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." ( Genesis 38:7 ).

" And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also." ( Genesis 38:10 ).

" And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." ( Leviticus 10:2 ).

" And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God." ( 1 Chronicles 13:10 ).

" And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." ( Numbers 16:35 ).

" And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses." ( 2 Kings 19:35 ).

" God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies." ( Nahum 1:2 ).



No SBG, He does not.

John 3:16, "God SO LOVES the entire human race"

IF you try to limit the use of "kosmos" here to the "elect", then you have the problem with what follows, "whosoever from this kosmos believes, will not perish", which means there are those who from the "elect" who do not believe, and will be damned! Your understadning is theological and not Biblical

 

[agedman]

Jesus Christ Died for the sins of the entire human race, from Adam to the last man, including Judas, It is only those who "repent and believe in the Gospel", that will be saved.

That isn't the issue between us.

What I am holding as valid is that one should place John 3 into the rest of the presentation of the Lord as declared in the whole writing of John.

That the limit of atonement being found in belief then must resolve to how one can be brought to belief.

That according to John and Romans is totally by the work and grace of God. Even the faith is not of one own conjure, but comes by being given ears to hear by the Scriptures.

How often does the Scriptures state, "those who have ears to hear?" Such a statement is not about the physical ability to hear, but the God given capacity to hear with understanding which the ungodly cannot do on their own for they have turned away from God.

The remarkable thinking that just because God loved His creation, does not oblige God to select and provide salvation for the whole of creation. The plant and animal kingdom is not redeemed, and does not Romans state that the world groans with the condemnation.

That God selected and causes to come to pass the salvation of those of His purposed selection is in no manner lessening the obligation He gave to believers to witness, disciple, and baptize.

We plant and we water.

If God chooses to bring the redeemed through great sorrow, that is His business.

The expression of sorrow in the form of repentance is His business.

Repentance is His business.

No one is saved without first repenting (turning to God) and repenting (changed heart to the things of God) and repenting (Godly sorrow for offending God) and repenting (dying continually to the impulses - desires - of the flesh) and repenting (submitting to His authority and His will)...

However, such repentance is not some stirred up human emotional estate (though it can include such) but that which is the result of leading by the goodness of God. (Romans 2)

 

[Dave G]

John 3:16, "God SO LOVES the entire human race"

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:14-21 ).

My friend, I encourage you not to make it say more than it does.

God's word does not contradict itself...
If He says in the Old Testament that He loves the righteous and hates the wicked ( Psalms 5, Psalms 11 ), He is God and changes not.
You can be sure that what the Lord Jesus said in John 3 is in perfect agreement with Psalms 5, Psalms 11, and so forth.

Again, He hates the wicked and loves the righteous;
According to His word, He hates those that He has not made righteous by the blood of His Son, and He loves those that He has.

He will not cast people that He loves into eternal punishment, and in His wrath will not exact payment for sins that His Son has already paid for...
But He will indeed cast people into eternal torment who hate Him and who He hates, and those whom His Son did not redeem.

It really is that simple and straightforward, which is why anyone who truly is saved can be assured that they stand perfectly righteous before Him because of the work that His Son did for them on the cross...
As well as knowing that His wrath will never be upon them and was indeed, never upon them.

They have been delivered from the wrath to come.


Good evening to you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:14-21 ).

My friend, I encourage you not to make it say more than it does.

God's word does not contradict itself...
If He says in the Old Testament that He loves the righteous and hates the wicked ( Psalms 5, Psalms 11 ), He is God and changes not.
You can be sure that what the Lord Jesus said in John 3 is in perfect agreement with Psalms 5, Psalms 11, and so forth.

Again, He hates the wicked and loves the righteous;
According to His word, He hates those that He has not made righteous by the blood of His Son, and He loves those that He has.

He will not cast people that He loves into eternal punishment, and in His wrath will not exact payment for sins that His Son has already paid for...
But He will indeed cast people into eternal torment who hate Him and who He hates, and those whom His Son did not redeem.

It really is that simple and straightforward, which is why anyone who truly is saved can be assured that they stand perfectly righteous before Him because of the work that His Son did for them on the cross...
As well as knowing that His wrath will never be upon them and was indeed, never upon them.

They have been delivered from the wrath to come.


Good evening to you.

Have you heard of the Reformed theologian, Dr Robert Dabney? This is what he said on KOSMOS in John 3:16

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Then we have John Calvin himself

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Note that Calvin also says that God INVITES sinners to salvation!

 

[AustinC]

Have you heard of the Reformed theologian, Dr Robert Dabney? This is what he said on KOSMOS in John 3:16

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Then we have John Calvin himself

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Note that Calvin also says that God INVITES sinners to salvation!

Jesus tells a parable that I suspect Calvin might point you toward, sbw.

“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
~ Matthew 22:2-14

 

[percho]

I know, no Greek, as I have said many times, therefore I would like to ask those who consider themselves, Greek scholars of any degree.

How should I understand and or how should the following from 2 Thes 2:13 be translated being, sanctification and belief, are in the dative?

I ask relative to the following statement of Paul 1 Tim 1:12 - 17
And I give thanks to him who enabled me -- Christ Jesus our Lord -- that he did reckon me stedfast, having put me to the ministration, who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, but I found kindness, because, being ignorant, I did it in unbelief, and exceedingly abound did the grace of our Lord, with faith and love that is in Christ Jesus:
stedfast is the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners -- first of whom I am;
but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him (dative) to life age-during: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Did Paul of his own volition go from unbelief unto belief or did God transfer Paul from unbelief unto belief? Relative to the Greek?
Or can that be determined from the Greek?

Maybe I should put this in Bible versions and translations?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I know, no Greek, as I have said many times, therefore I would like to ask those who consider themselves, Greek scholars of any degree.

How should I understand and or how should the following from 2 Thes 2:13 be translated being, sanctification and belief, are in the dative?

I ask relative to the following statement of Paul 1 Tim 1:12 - 17
And I give thanks to him who enabled me -- Christ Jesus our Lord -- that he did reckon me stedfast, having put me to the ministration, who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, but I found kindness, because, being ignorant, I did it in unbelief, and exceedingly abound did the grace of our Lord, with faith and love that is in Christ Jesus:
stedfast is the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners -- first of whom I am;
but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him (dative) to life age-during: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Did Paul of his own volition go from unbelief unto belief or did God transfer Paul from unbelief unto belief? Relative to the Greek?
Or can that be determined from the Greek?

Maybe I should put this in Bible versions and translations?

2 Thess 2:13 has two different readings in the Greek manuscripts, and other textual evidence, as in the ESV

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"

Which is also in the NIV, CEV, GNT, ISV, NAB, NRSV, Douay-Rheims, etc

ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, "from the beginning", as in the KJV, etc, is in the Codex Sinaiticus, of the 4th cent. and later manuscripts. also in the Old Latin Version, which dates from the 2nd

ἀπαρχὴν, "first-fruits", is also in a 4th cent mass, the Codex Vatacanus, and other mss, and the Old Latin

In 1 Cor 16:15, the ESV reads, "Now I urge you, brothers—you know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints". Where "first converts" is "ἀπαρχὴν"

You will have to decide which reading is right or the better, as they are equally supported by the textual evidence.

Can you explain what you are trying to get from the passage in 1 Timothy?

 

[percho]

2 Thess 2:13 has two different readings in the Greek manuscripts, and other textual evidence, as in the ESV

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"

Which is also in the NIV, CEV, GNT, ISV, NAB, NRSV, Douay-Rheims, etc

ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, "from the beginning", as in the KJV, etc, is in the Codex Sinaiticus, of the 4th cent. and later manuscripts. also in the Old Latin Version, which dates from the 2nd

ἀπαρχὴν, "first-fruits", is also in a 4th cent mass, the Codex Vatacanus, and other mss, and the Old Latin

In 1 Cor 16:15, the ESV reads, "Now I urge you, brothers—you know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints". Where "first converts" is "ἀπαρχὴν"

You will have to decide which reading is right or the better, as they are equally supported by the textual evidence.

Can you explain what you are trying to get from the passage in 1 Timothy?

Can you explain what you are trying to get from the passage in 1 Timothy?


Did Paul of his own volition go from unbelief unto belief or did God transfer Paul from unbelief unto belief? Relative to the Greek of 2 Thes 2:13

In 2 T 2:13 whether it be first fruit or from beginning Is it of our volition or of God translating us through the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, unto belief.

Does God change us through the HS as believers or do we, of our own volition believe, unto salvation?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can you explain what you are trying to get from the passage in 1 Timothy?


Did Paul of his own volition go from unbelief unto belief or did God transfer Paul from unbelief unto belief? Relative to the Greek of 2 Thes 2:13

In 2 T 2:13 whether it be first fruit or from beginning Is it of our volition or of God translating us through the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, unto belief.

Does God change us through the HS as believers or do we, of our own volition believe, unto salvation?

In the first place, I thought the OP is quite clear on 1 Timothy 2, that God desires the entire human race to be saved, and that Jesus Christ has provided for their salvation in His Death

Secondly, The Bible Way of Salvation

 

[Dave G]

Have you heard of the Reformed theologian, Dr Robert Dabney?

No sir, and I don't pay any attention to such.
I simply read my Bible and believe what it tells me.

This is what he said on KOSMOS in John 3:16

Respectfully,
If you feel that you need a man's explanation of it in order to understand it, perhaps you're relying on the wrong source, my friend.

Then we have John Calvin himself

Truth be told, I never had any use for his writings, either.
In fact, the Lord tells me that I have His Spirit as my Teacher, and He's all I need ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

Note that Calvin also says that God INVITES sinners to salvation!

Scripture says that God invited Israel, but there were no takers ( Matthew 22:1-14 ).
That's why He had to do all the work of bringing people to Him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No sir, and I don't pay any attention to such.
I simply read my Bible and believe what it tells me.

Resepctfully,
If you feel that you need a man's explanation of it in order to understand it, perhaps you're relying on the wrong source, my friend.

Truth be told, I never had any use for his writings, either.
In fact, the Lord tells me that I have His Spirit as my Teacher, and He's all I need ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

Scripture says that God invited Israel, but there were no takers ( Matthew 22:1-14 ).
That's why He had to do all the work of bringing people to Him.

Each to their own

 

[Dave G]

Each to their own

Read the parable again, my friend, and perhaps you'll see the evidence of man's hard-heartedness ( just as the Lord describes in Romans 1 ), and the picture of God's "compelling" people by the power of the Holy Ghost and the new birth, just as He does for all of His children.

It's called "calling", and it is referred to repeatedly throughout the New Testament...
Especially in the epistles to the churches.

John 6:44 and Acts of the Apostles 16:14 come to mind when I think on it.