You have made up a fairy tale found nowhere in the scripture and then demand a name for it. Why don't you give some scripture that defines this "purgatory" you speak of?
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Nowhere found in Scripture? See 1 Cor 3 7:17
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are
So you see we recognize Christ as the foundation, the concept of a purging sins and the reward we shall receive as we labor in this life to live holy and pleasing lives to God. And of course you have your own fallible interpretation concerning this doctrine, so why should you be believed?
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I'm sorry. Point out again which verse speaks about purging sins for me......
Of course there is the RCC version, and then we have the Biblical version concerning sin...
Heb 10 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;......For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Praise God for Sola Scripture!!!!!!! Allows us to determine correct Word of God doctrine verses man-made doctrines.
Sanctified, but you still can sin. What do you do next?
And then your "Sola Scriptura" leads you into error with YOUR man made doctrinal interpretations. That brings us back to square one between orthodox Christian beliefs and what you believe.
Did you miss the "for ever" part?
Still waiting for you to show me the "purging of sins" verse in the scripture YOUR RCC says is about purgatory........
It alludes to that happening. The "Trinity" is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible either, but it is a true doctrine nonetheless. But really, not everything that happens, can happen, or is true is recorded (as you somehow need to see them exactly written out) in the Scriptures. Jesus talked in parables, but the teaching of truth was still there.
The trinity, that is the triune Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is taught in many places throughout the Bible, but the doctrine of Purgatory is not taught anywhere in the Bible. It is a man-made philosophy, not taught by Christ, nor the apostles, nor by the early Christians. It is heretical and totally against the preaching of the gospel of Christ.
The doctrine of Purgatory as the RCC teaches it did not come into existence until the 11th century!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory
However the concept of Purgatory was well established long before Christianity and deep-rooted in Paganism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory
Purgatory was/is a good method for priests and others to fleece the Lord's flock instead of feeding it (Ezekiel 34:1-3).
As the 15th Century progressed, people became more and more eager to hear preaching. Margery Kemp became so frustrated at its lack that she herself attempted to preach, to the bemusement of her neighbours and the ire of the priests. But where preaching was to be heard, she records, ‘How fast the people came running to hear the sermon,’ when a well-known preacher visited her home town of King’s Lynn, although she rather haughtily doubted the motives of her neighbours in so doing (3).
So where preaching was to be heard at all, it was more likely to be from itinerant friars or ‘pardoners’ than from the Parish priests. Such preaching tended to concentrate upon the horrors of hell and of purgatory. The Roman Church taught that even Christians needed to have their sins purged, and this was done by a sojourn of indefinite duration in purgatory. ‘Though every Christian might hope for heaven, only the saints could hope to go there directly. All who died in a state of venial sin, all who had forgotten or concealed such sins in confession, all who had not yet fulfilled every part of the penance imposed in confession for sins repented, confessed or absolved, all who had had insufficient penance imposed on them by over-indulgent confessors, all who fell short of that fullness of charity which lay at the root of salvation…..all these were bound to spend some times in the pains of purgatory’ (4). Part of the problem with Purgatory was that since it appears nowhere at all in the Bible, no one could say how long it might continue before one was released to heaven, nor how severe the pains might be. Duffy reports some lurid accounts of the agonies allegedly experienced there, ‘souls…..suspended by meat-hooks driven through jaws, tongue and sexual organs, frozen into ice, boiling in vats of liquid metal or fire…… There was general agreement that, al least as far as its activities and staff were concerned, Purgatory was an out-patient department of hell rather than the antechamber of heaven….. In Purgatory, declared [Bishop] Fisher, “Is so great acerbite of pynes that no difference is between the paynes of hell and them, but only eternyte.’ (5).
Unsurprisingly, the result of this teaching was that men and women were desperate to avoid Purgatory, and in their desperation they became the victims of another unbiblical doctrine. The Roman church taught that prayers for the dead were not only efficacious but important in lessening the time spent by the departed in purgatory. Every week the Parish priest would bid the people pray, ‘For all the souls that abide the mercy of God in the pains of Purgatory.’ For those with the necessary finance, the local church or monastery would arrange special prayers for the newly departed. How could a dutiful son or daughter refuse to pay for masses to be said for recently deceased parents? And wealthy folk, instead of leaving their money to their children, would leave it to the church for masses to be conducted on their behalf. Duffy relates the case of one John Clopton, who in 1494 wrote in his will, “As far as I can remember, I am clear of all wrongs done to any person.” Nonetheless, he felt it expedient to leave 50 Marks to secure 2,000 masses within the first month following his death. “I know well,” he said, “that prayers are a singular remedy for the deliverance of souls in purgatory, and especially he offering of the blessed sacrament of our Lord’s body” (6). The churches and monasteries grew mightily rich on the back of such donations, playing on the fears of a superstitious populace.
[Taken from my articles on the Reformation: https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2016/03/09/the-peoples-reformation-3-medieval-christianity-part-2/ Most of the quotations are from The Stripping of the Altars by Eamon Duffy. Duffy is a Roman Catholic historian]
As the 15th Century progressed, people became more and more eager to hear preaching. Margery Kemp became so frustrated at its lack that she herself attempted to preach, to the bemusement of her neighbours and the ire of the priests. But where preaching was to be heard, she records, ‘How fast the people came running to hear the sermon,’ when a well-known preacher visited her home town of King’s Lynn, although she rather haughtily doubted the motives of her neighbours in so doing (3).
So where preaching was to be heard at all, it was more likely to be from itinerant friars or ‘pardoners’ than from the Parish priests. Such preaching tended to concentrate upon the horrors of hell and of purgatory. The Roman Church taught that even Christians needed to have their sins purged, and this was done by a sojourn of indefinite duration in purgatory. ‘Though every Christian might hope for heaven, only the saints could hope to go there directly. All who died in a state of venial sin, all who had forgotten or concealed such sins in confession, all who had not yet fulfilled every part of the penance imposed in confession for sins repented, confessed or absolved, all who had had insufficient penance imposed on them by over-indulgent confessors, all who fell short of that fullness of charity which lay at the root of salvation…..all these were bound to spend some times in the pains of purgatory’ (4). Part of the problem with Purgatory was that since it appears nowhere at all in the Bible, no one could say how long it might continue before one was released to heaven, nor how severe the pains might be. Duffy reports some lurid accounts of the agonies allegedly experienced there, ‘souls…..suspended by meat-hooks driven through jaws, tongue and sexual organs, frozen into ice, boiling in vats of liquid metal or fire…… There was general agreement that, al least as far as its activities and staff were concerned, Purgatory was an out-patient department of hell rather than the antechamber of heaven….. In Purgatory, declared [Bishop] Fisher, “Is so great acerbite of pynes that no difference is between the paynes of hell and them, but only eternyte.’ (5).
Unsurprisingly, the result of this teaching was that men and women were desperate to avoid Purgatory, and in their desperation they became the victims of another unbiblical doctrine. The Roman church taught that prayers for the dead were not only efficacious but important in lessening the time spent by the departed in purgatory. Every week the Parish priest would bid the people pray, ‘For all the souls that abide the mercy of God in the pains of Purgatory.’ For those with the necessary finance, the local church or monastery would arrange special prayers for the newly departed. How could a dutiful son or daughter refuse to pay for masses to be said for recently deceased parents? And wealthy folk, instead of leaving their money to their children, would leave it to the church for masses to be conducted on their behalf. Duffy relates the case of one John Clopton, who in 1494 wrote in his will, “As far as I can remember, I am clear of all wrongs done to any person.” Nonetheless, he felt it expedient to leave 50 Marks to secure 2,000 masses within the first month following his death. “I know well,” he said, “that prayers are a singular remedy for the deliverance of souls in purgatory, and especially he offering of the blessed sacrament of our Lord’s body” (6). The churches and monasteries grew mightily rich on the back of such donations, playing on the fears of a superstitious populace.
[Taken from my articles on the Reformation: https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2016/03/09/the-peoples-reformation-3-medieval-christianity-part-2/ Most of the quotations are from The Stripping of the Altars by Eamon Duffy. Duffy is a Roman Catholic historian]
Until the 11th Century? Not so my friend. The Fathers of the early One Universal Christian Church in the early centuries believed in this doctrine and also of praying for the dearly departed.
St. Augustine in the year 421 said this: "That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire"
And Gregory of Nissa wrote in the year 382: "If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire"
And St. John Chrysostom: "Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them".
And then we have Tertullian who wrote: "We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]".
"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice".
You constantly go back to paganism. Don't you realize that it was Christianity that supplanted paganism in all manner of ways? I previously mentioned the pagan religion of Mithraism, a way according to Gerald Berry who wrote in the book Religions of the World in which he said: "Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."
See what I mean? It's all about the new true religion of God supplanting all the religions that existed before - and guess what, you as a believer you are part of it because of it's long history. There is nothing to be ashamed of here with the natural progression of man's religious thought process.
First, the article said "as it is known in the RCC today," which is accurate. I also pointed out (as it did), that elements of Purgatory were found in paganism before Christianity existed. Your following quoted do the same thing. They show that the ECF believed in a pagan doctrine invented by a pagan religion and then absorbed into their brand of "Christianity" unknown in Biblical Christianity today as well as unknown in the Bible--a foreign doctrine traceable to paganism not the Bible.
So what? His vain philosophy is no match for the Bible. This is where sola scriptura trumps man's vain philosophy every time.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
--This is what the RCC is guilty of. The worship if vain. The teach the commandments of God rather than the Word of God, thus their hatred of sola scriptura.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
--See the contrast. The RCC comes with deception teaching vain words.
I come with the Bible teaching sola scriptura, for the Bible is my final authority.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
--The philosophy of Augustine and others you quote have taught philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of me.
I teach Christ through His Word. That is sola scriptura.
1 Timothy 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
--This describes the RCC and its founders.
The very next verse continues:
1 Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
--But they don't know the Word of God. Since they teach the commandments of men and vain traditions they are simply false teachers leading people astray. They do not understand what they say nor whereof they affirm. Any person in the RCC should leave immediately!
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
--Paul told Timothy to keep or remember always those things that he had taught him (the Word of God), but avoid the vain babblings (the teachings of the RCC as they are today). The expression reminds me of the little homilies I used to hear in the RCC.
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
--Paul doesn't stop. He keeps on warning Timothy to shun, not to listen to these vain babblings about Purgatory and other RCC demonic doctrine. They will increase more and more he says prophetically. And if one looks at the RCC today, Paul was absolutely correct!
Nothing here is found in the Bible. It is wishful thinking, the origin of which is found in paganism.
He said:
"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself,..."
This is an expression of salvation by works found outside of salvation by grace through faith in Christ. He has no concept here that salvation is in Christ. It is heresy.
Offerings for the dead is necromancy. Necromancy is heresy and those that practiced it were put to death.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
--Such were put to death.
Just because these ECF say it, do it, practice it, doesn't make it right. It was wrong. In the OT they were put to death as the practice was condemned. They should have known better.
And you think this pagan practice makes it right? It is paganism. It is not Christianity. It is practiced in Shintoism and Hinduism. Ask John of Japan, a missionary to Japan.
Paganism still exists. Google it. The sad thing is that Catholicism has incorporated these pagan practices into their own liturgy and practices. It is paganized Christianity. Thus it is not Christianity at all but simply another pagan religion. Paul admonishes all to separate themselves from such a religion (2Cor.6:14-17).
We follow the Bible. You have followed a religion of paganism. The facts presented are true and cannot be refuted. Demonic doctrines such as Purgatory cannot be found in the Bible, only in pagan religions quoted by ECF leaders with no scriptural background.
What about all the Church fathers who never heard of Purgatory and therefore never wrote about it?
We can clear this whole misunderstanding up with a few questions even just one.
When its all said and done and you are in heaven with God will you continue to sin?
No, for the sin is caused by the fallen flesh which remains on the earth and returns to dust.
Romans 7, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".
How wonderful to have the Scriptures to answer these questions for us! Praise Jesus!
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Excuses Steve,
When you sin its YOUR fault not God's.
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I still thought that it is not we who sin but some other nature that sins within us. It flattered my pride to think that I incurred no guilt and, when I did wrong, not to confess it... I preferred to excuse myself and blame this unknown thing which was in me but was not part of me. The truth, of course, was that it was all my own self, and my own impiety had divided me against myself. My sin was all the more incurable because I did not think myself a sinner. (Confessions, Book V, Section 10)
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Old Gnostic Idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
Sin is not cause by "fallen flesh". Sin is when you willfully choose to disobey God. If you didn't want to sin, forced by "fallen flesh" your innocent, sinless even now.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5)
How precious to have the Word of God to answer these life questions. Sin has it's life in the flesh. When the flesh dies or is changed in the twinkling at the rapture, it is gone from the inner man. There is no need of any pagan made purgatory.
I proved my point through the historic principle of sola scriptura, something Jesus did in Luke 24:
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
--He went through all the OT and expounded to them all the Scriptures concerning himself. That is sola scriptura.
When Jesus had departed from them then the disciples said:
Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
--What an effect the living Word had upon them!
A while later he appeared to all the disciples:
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
--Again, using the principle of sola scriptura, he expounded the scriptures so that they could understand them.
Then he draws a conclusion for them and applies it by giving a command:
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
--They were witnesses (Acts 1:8). They were to go with the message he had given them.
I have answered you with scripture. You simply complain. If you had any answer at all you would be able to use a Bible and do as Peter commanded:
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
But Catholics are never ready to answer anyone out of the Bible. They can't. They hate sola scriptura just as they dislike true biblical teaching. Their doctrines are the doctrines of men with origins in paganism. If I am wrong show me that I am wrong. The fact that you cannot show me that I am wrong demonstrates that the RCC and its doctrines are a false religion teaching false doctrines.
The fact is I could argue my point using the Scriptures and you would continue to say that I and the Catholic Church are in error (as you already do) and I don't believe for a minute you would ever admit you were wrong. You have too much invested in what you believe at this point to consider any other argument. I have had interactions with others like Jehovah's Witnesses folks who have argued with the same zeal, intensity, and purpose of truth as you do. I sincerely believe that Jesus could show up at your house tonight and you would argue YOUR biblical interpretation against His.
Look, I am truly happy for you that you have found God through your particular form of Christianity. For you it works, but for billions of other Christian followers on this earth now and all through history - not so much.
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