Vicar of Jesus Christ?

[Adonia]

Baptism is not and never was a requirement for salvation.
Baptism simply gets you wet. There is no impartation of grace. It certainly can't save, or forgive sins. It just gets you wet! Why is it so important for parents in the RCC to have their infants unnecessarily doused with what could be some polluted water by a complete stranger (to the infant). He or she didn't ask for this torture. It is against the infant's human rights!

I looked up the history for you. There was no infant baptism for about five centuries after the death of Christ! Were all those Christians or infants who died before that time in hell today??
The Bible teaches that one must first believe and then be baptized. Baptism is a step of obedience on the part of the believer, not a requirement to be saved. It is for the believer not the unbeliever. It is in obedience to the command of Christ (Mat.28:19,20), AFTER salvation.
One obeys the command because Jesus commanded it.
One obeys the command because it symbolizes our death to sin and our resurrection to a new life in Christ.
One obeys the command even though it simply gets you wet; not holy; not saved.


If you don't understand what repentance is you probably haven't repented. What you described is something you DID--a work.
Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
Salvation is regeneration not reformation. It is not confessing your sins and then saying I can do better. Or, promising not to do it again (because deep inside you know you will). That is not repentance.
Study the definition and description I gave you on repentance.


I simply responded to what you said to me, which is:
I know full well the feeling you had. But you don't. So why try and judge feelings?
Salvation is not based on feelings, neither the experience you speak of.
Salvation is based on the Word of God, and thus the importance of sola scriptura. The Bible is our final authority. If it is not according to the Word of God then it is wrong.

I have people tell me they know they are going to heaven because they saw Jesus in a dream.
Hogwash! Salvation is not seeing Jesus in a dream. It is trusting Him by faith and faith alone. It is putting one's trust in His sacrificial work on the cross. He said "It is finished" (Jn.19:30). There is nothing more that any one can do (including being baptized). Jesus paid it all.

There is no good thing one can do. There is absolutely nothing one can do to merit eternal life.
One cannot please God. Christ hung there on the cross. He paid the penalty for our sins. No man can help him pay the penalty. Christ paid it all. We simply need to take the gift of salvation that he has provided by faith. There is nothing that man can do. Jesus did it all.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.

And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.

And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus’ feet.

Jesus Paid It All | Elvina M. Hall[/

Baptism is not and never was a requirement for salvation.
Baptism simply gets you wet. There is no impartation of grace. It certainly can't save, or forgive sins. It just gets you wet! Why is it so important for parents in the RCC to have their infants unnecessarily doused with what could be some polluted water by a complete stranger (to the infant). He or she didn't ask for this torture. It is against the infant's human rights!

I looked up the history for you. There was no infant baptism for about five centuries after the death of Christ! Were all those Christians or infants who died before that time in hell today??
The Bible teaches that one must first believe and then be baptized. Baptism is a step of obedience on the part of the believer, not a requirement to be saved. It is for the believer not the unbeliever. It is in obedience to the command of Christ (Mat.28:19,20), AFTER salvation.
One obeys the command because Jesus commanded it.
One obeys the command because it symbolizes our death to sin and our resurrection to a new life in Christ.
One obeys the command even though it simply gets you wet; not holy; not saved.


If you don't understand what repentance is you probably haven't repented. What you described is something you DID--a work.
Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
Salvation is regeneration not reformation. It is not confessing your sins and then saying I can do better. Or, promising not to do it again (because deep inside you know you will). That is not repentance.
Study the definition and description I gave you on repentance.


I simply responded to what you said to me, which is:
I know full well the feeling you had. But you don't. So why try and judge feelings?
Salvation is not based on feelings, neither the experience you speak of.
Salvation is based on the Word of God, and thus the importance of sola scriptura. The Bible is our final authority. If it is not according to the Word of God then it is wrong.

I have people tell me they know they are going to heaven because they saw Jesus in a dream.
Hogwash! Salvation is not seeing Jesus in a dream. It is trusting Him by faith and faith alone. It is putting one's trust in His sacrificial work on the cross. He said "It is finished" (Jn.19:30). There is nothing more that any one can do (including being baptized). Jesus paid it all.

There is no good thing one can do. There is absolutely nothing one can do to merit eternal life.
One cannot please God. Christ hung there on the cross. He paid the penalty for our sins. No man can help him pay the penalty. Christ paid it all. We simply need to take the gift of salvation that he has provided by faith. There is nothing that man can do. Jesus did it all.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.

And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.

And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus’ feet.

Jesus Paid It All | Elvina M. Hall

No doubt about it, you are a true believer in Sola Scriptura and I am happy for you and as long as it keeps you on the straight and narrow path I say AMEN! As for me, I am a believer in Christian orthodoxy and see no reason to follow your particular sect. All you have is what you say you have through your own interpretation of God's Holy Word. I say we orthodox Christians follow the word of God, which exists both in the belief and faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior and the proper interpretation of the Scriptures by His Church here on earth.

As of late, all you have been going on about is that I am somehow getting things wrong even though you do not know my innermost feelings and the relationship I have with the Lord Jesus Christ. You make assumptions about what I may or may not believe and in the end what you say is really most erroneous. In the end, every Christian does not have to have the same religious experience that you seem to have via the Baptist belief system and that does not make only you right and others wrong. So at this point, it seems we have arrived at an impasse we shall have to agree to disagree. It's been nice conversing with you. God bless!

 

[DHK]

No doubt about it, you are a true believer in Sola Scriptura and I am happy for you and as long as it keeps you on the straight and narrow path I say AMEN!

My parents walked "the straight and narrow way." Their lives exemplified, at least on the outside, a more upright and moral character than most on this board IMO. Someone once said that the two greatest dangers to the church today are "the moral outsider," and the "Immoral insider." I believe that to be true. As far as I can tell their religion of Catholicism kept them from trusting only in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Rather they trusted in the RCC instead. That being true, they would be in hell today as hard as it is to think about that.
Orthodox Christianity (Christianity per se), is not a religion; it is a relationship with Christ.
If one doesn't have that relationship, they are not saved and cannot enter into heaven.
Jesus said that relationship comes through the new birth.
The RCC says that the new birth is baptism. They are wrong. They are leading people to hell.
If that is what you believe you also are on your way to hell. Jesus said you must be born again. Have you been born again, not baptized, but born again by the Spirit of God? If so, when, where, and how?

As for me, I am a believer in Christian orthodoxy and see no reason to follow your particular sect.

I don't follow a sect. When I was saved, I soon left the RCC, but officially I wasn't a member of any church. In fact my occupation was such that it prevented me from going to church. I lived in a very isolated place. Churches don't save. Jesus Christ saves. Baptism doesn't save. Jesus Christ saves. It was Christ that saved me that night many years ago in a dormitory room on the campus of a university having nothing to do with a "sect" or church of any kind.
Have you ever studied World religions and cults? You should. Most books I find on the subject will put RCC either with the "cults" or with "Other World Religions." They do not classify under "Christianity," because it is not a Christian religion! Telling isn't is??

All you have is what you say you have through your own interpretation of God's Holy Word. I say we orthodox Christians follow the word of God, which exists both in the belief and faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior and the proper interpretation of the Scriptures by His Church here on earth.

I don't have my interpretation of the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. It is God's interpretation, and the duty of man is to so study so that he finds out what God is saying; that is, what God's interpretation is. I find out what God is saying. Now the RCC has its own private interpretation which is not Biblical. Look at it:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
--The Scripture is not up for "private interpretation." In case you are confused about that statement, here is what it means. The RCC has a "private interpretation" of the Bible. They force all their members to believe in their private interpretation. That means its members, like you, must disobey many of the explicit commands of Scripture because you must follow their private interpretation--an interpretation given by sinful men, and not of God.

Here is what you are disobeying by giving into the RCC.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--But the priest interprets it for you. You can't do this on your own. It is against the Catechism.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
--Their error was not knowing the scriptures; it wasn't in not knowing the Catechism.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
--Judgment would soon fall on Israel, God's people, because they had neglected to study God's Word. They had a "lack of knowledge" concerning it.

As of late, all you have been going on about is that I am somehow getting things wrong even though you do not know my innermost feelings and the relationship I have with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Feelings count for nothing. I tried to make that clear.
If I have to work every day, and the alarm goes off, then that means I have to get up.
What if I say: "I don't feel like it." "I feel like staying in bed today and not going to work."
If that is the attitude I take toward life I soon would be fired and my life would end up in disaster. One does't run their life by their feelings. One is not saved according to their feelings. It is Christ that saves, not feelings.
What kind of relationship do you have with Christ? And how did you come to have this relationship? What is it based on?

Your profile simply says:
"The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ under which we receive forgiveness for our sins."
--That is a fact. It doesn't indicate a relationship (which the question was asking for).

You make assumptions about what I may or may not believe and in the end what you say is really most erroneous.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--He was speaking of false teachers coming bringing their false doctrine. The fruit is the false doctrine, not "good works" as many suppose. I know you by the doctrine you post, the doctrine you defend. Yes, I am sola scriptura, and by the Bible I judge:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--I ask: If what is posted is continually against what the Bible says, is it because there is no spiritual light in this person? And I answer: That is a real possibility. Then I work from that premise.
I also work from this premise: It is impossible for a Catholic to both understand the gospel, and then know what the RCC teaches about how to be saved, and be truly saved at the same time. In fact it is impossible for the true gospel and the salvation that the RCC teaches are exact contrary to each other. One must choose one or the other.
It is like Islam. You must choose. One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time. A choice must be made.

In the end, every Christian does not have to have the same religious experience that you seem to have via the Baptist belief system and that does not make only you right and others wrong.

I base my salvation on the promises of God's Word, not an experience. Experiences fail. They are subjective. God's Word never fails. Christ never fails. Salvation is based on the Christ of the Bible, not a mystical Christ that is found outside of the Bible.

So at this point, it seems we have arrived at an impasse we shall have to agree to disagree. It's been nice conversing with you. God bless!

I will disagree. But I will not even agree to disagree, because I know you are wrong.
You must be born again. If you want to see spiritual truth for what it is you must be born again. But first you must find out what that really means, and it has nothing to do with baptism.

 

[BobRyan]

You cannot be talking about the NT Scriptures as they never came about in the form we now know them for another 300 years down the road.

turns out -- all of them written in the first 100 years. And not a single reference in the NT to "we cannot read the scriptures until one of our great grandchildren come along and tell us what to think".

The NT age STARTS with the accepted official - church magisterium getting "hammered" sola-scriptura.

Watch as the nation-church magisterium of Christ's day - getting hammered "sola scriptura"

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[BobRyan]

Why did the disciples leave Jesus John 6? He even told the twelve why don't they leave too?

Because they took Christ "too literally" - notice that not one of the 12 "bites Christ" in John 6??

Notice that in Matt 16 - Christ hammers the 12 for "taking him too literally" on the subject of bread?

 

[BobRyan]

All,

This has been an interesting experience. It has been my desire all along to present my views in charity and kindness. I hope I have lived up to this goal!

At this point, suddenly, it turns out that my Internet connection will cease tomorrow. So I will not be visiting with any frequency, if at all.

To all of you, I wish you the best. This has been an interesting and engaging adventure!

In Him,

Herbert

Thanks for joining Herbert. Your mission should you choose to accept it - was to "show" the bridge between your former position as Baptist - and your present position as Catholic. "Showing" those compelling Bible details that should logically lead a Baptist to become Catholic - as you say you did yourself when you converted to the Catholic religion.

This would be a great thing for your own church - to be able to show that bridge -- let everyone review it and see just how solid it is - because if it holds up to "sola scriptura" review - you could have many more follow.

Yet in your responses to me you state clearly that you will refuse to do that. Ok well you have free will.

I have asked you to do this a number of times - and I am not Catholic nor Baptist. You have been polite but repeatedly you refuse to look at the details and when scripture appears to refute some position you hold your response is that you don't like the quote, or the reference to scripture or that it cannot be accepted as it reads, or that you know of a catholic source that does not accept that text as it reads (which would be an argument that the Baptist Herbert would never have listened to).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adonia]

My parents walked "the straight and narrow way." Their lives exemplified, at least on the outside, a more upright and moral character than most on this board IMO. Someone once said that the two greatest dangers to the church today are "the moral outsider," and the "Immoral insider." I believe that to be true. As far as I can tell their religion of Catholicism kept them from trusting only in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Rather they trusted in the RCC instead. That being true, they would be in hell today as hard as it is to think about that.
Orthodox Christianity (Christianity per se), is not a religion; it is a relationship with Christ.
If one doesn't have that relationship, they are not saved and cannot enter into heaven.
Jesus said that relationship comes through the new birth.
The RCC says that the new birth is baptism. They are wrong. They are leading people to hell.
If that is what you believe you also are on your way to hell. Jesus said you must be born again. Have you been born again, not baptized, but born again by the Spirit of God? If so, when, where, and how?

I don't follow a sect. When I was saved, I soon left the RCC, but officially I wasn't a member of any church. In fact my occupation was such that it prevented me from going to church. I lived in a very isolated place. Churches don't save. Jesus Christ saves. Baptism doesn't save. Jesus Christ saves. It was Christ that saved me that night many years ago in a dormitory room on the campus of a university having nothing to do with a "sect" or church of any kind.
Have you ever studied World religions and cults? You should. Most books I find on the subject will put RCC either with the "cults" or with "Other World Religions." They do not classify under "Christianity," because it is not a Christian religion! Telling isn't is??

I don't have my interpretation of the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. It is God's interpretation, and the duty of man is to so study so that he finds out what God is saying; that is, what God's interpretation is. I find out what God is saying. Now the RCC has its own private interpretation which is not Biblical. Look at it:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
--The Scripture is not up for "private interpretation." In case you are confused about that statement, here is what it means. The RCC has a "private interpretation" of the Bible. They force all their members to believe in their private interpretation. That means its members, like you, must disobey many of the explicit commands of Scripture because you must follow their private interpretation--an interpretation given by sinful men, and not of God.

Here is what you are disobeying by giving into the RCC.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--But the priest interprets it for you. You can't do this on your own. It is against the Catechism.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
--Their error was not knowing the scriptures; it wasn't in not knowing the Catechism.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
--Judgment would soon fall on Israel, God's people, because they had neglected to study God's Word. They had a "lack of knowledge" concerning it.


Feelings count for nothing. I tried to make that clear.
If I have to work every day, and the alarm goes off, then that means I have to get up.
What if I say: "I don't feel like it." "I feel like staying in bed today and not going to work."
If that is the attitude I take toward life I soon would be fired and my life would end up in disaster. One does't run their life by their feelings. One is not saved according to their feelings. It is Christ that saves, not feelings.
What kind of relationship do you have with Christ? And how did you come to have this relationship? What is it based on?

Your profile simply says:
"The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ under which we receive forgiveness for our sins."
--That is a fact. It doesn't indicate a relationship (which the question was asking for).

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--He was speaking of false teachers coming bringing their false doctrine. The fruit is the false doctrine, not "good works" as many suppose. I know you by the doctrine you post, the doctrine you defend. Yes, I am sola scriptura, and by the Bible I judge:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--I ask: If what is posted is continually against what the Bible says, is it because there is no spiritual light in this person? And I answer: That is a real possibility. Then I work from that premise.
I also work from this premise: It is impossible for a Catholic to both understand the gospel, and then know what the RCC teaches about how to be saved, and be truly saved at the same time. In fact it is impossible for the true gospel and the salvation that the RCC teaches are exact contrary to each other. One must choose one or the other.
It is like Islam. You must choose. One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time. A choice must be made.

I base my salvation on the promises of God's Word, not an experience. Experiences fail. They are subjective. God's Word never fails. Christ never fails. Salvation is based on the Christ of the Bible, not a mystical Christ that is found outside of the Bible.

I will disagree. But I will not even agree to disagree, because I know you are wrong.
You must be born again. If you want to see spiritual truth for what it is you must be born again. But first you must find out what that really means, and it has nothing to do with baptism.

Of course, the old "I am right and you are wrong" argument from the typical hardcore Fundamentalist Baptist follower who hides behind HIS interpretation of the Scriptures. Once again you are erroneous with your allegations and assumptions about me and my walk with the Lord. But okay, you are right and I am wrong along with other orthodox Christians and mainline Protestants - so a big gold star to you, happy now?

One thing I have always noticed, the most rabid anti-Catholics are those who have left the faith for another Christian sect. Meanwhile, the Fundamentalists who have converted to Catholicism are grateful and usually have nothing but good to say about their former faith traditions. You really are true to form in every way.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Many of his disciples left him over this, because they knew that he wasn't speaking metaphorically, but literally. We know from Mark 4:34 that Jesus explained all of His parables to His disciples, but yet here they are leaving him after this speech about the Eucharist.

Idolatrous blasphemy!

 

[DHK]

Of course, the old "I am right and you are wrong" argument from the typical hardcore Fundamentalist Baptist follower who hides behind HIS interpretation of the Scriptures. Once again you are erroneous with your allegations and assumptions about me and my walk with the Lord. But okay, you are right and I am wrong along with other orthodox Christians and mainline Protestants - so a big gold star to you, happy now?

One thing I have always noticed, the most rabid anti-Catholics are those who have left the faith for another Christian sect. Meanwhile, the Fundamentalists who have converted to Catholicism are grateful and usually have nothing but good to say about their former faith traditions. You really are true to form in every way.

I have patiently presented to you biblical truth. Show me where I am wrong. If I am wrong I will change my beliefs. If you are wrong you need to change yours. Let the Bible be our authority. Agreed?

You have said that I am erroneous. Therefore you need to respond with evidence "how am I erroneous"?

 

[steaver]

Meanwhile, the Fundamentalists who have converted to Catholicism are grateful and usually have nothing but good to say about their former faith traditions. You really are true to form in every way.

I thought the Catholic doctrine states somewhere that anyone who says salvation is by faith alone is cursed?

 

[Adonia]

My parents walked "the straight and narrow way." Their lives exemplified, at least on the outside, a more upright and moral character than most on this board IMO. Someone once said that the two greatest dangers to the church today are "the moral outsider," and the "Immoral insider." I believe that to be true. As far as I can tell their religion of Catholicism kept them from trusting only in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Rather they trusted in the RCC instead. That being true, they would be in hell today as hard as it is to think about that.
Orthodox Christianity (Christianity per se), is not a religion; it is a relationship with Christ.
If one doesn't have that relationship, they are not saved and cannot enter into heaven.
Jesus said that relationship comes through the new birth.
The RCC says that the new birth is baptism. They are wrong. They are leading people to hell.
If that is what you believe you also are on your way to hell. Jesus said you must be born again. Have you been born again, not baptized, but born again by the Spirit of God? If so, when, where, and how?

I don't follow a sect. When I was saved, I soon left the RCC, but officially I wasn't a member of any church. In fact my occupation was such that it prevented me from going to church. I lived in a very isolated place. Churches don't save. Jesus Christ saves. Baptism doesn't save. Jesus Christ saves. It was Christ that saved me that night many years ago in a dormitory room on the campus of a university having nothing to do with a "sect" or church of any kind.
Have you ever studied World religions and cults? You should. Most books I find on the subject will put RCC either with the "cults" or with "Other World Religions." They do not classify under "Christianity," because it is not a Christian religion! Telling isn't is??

I don't have my interpretation of the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. It is God's interpretation, and the duty of man is to so study so that he finds out what God is saying; that is, what God's interpretation is. I find out what God is saying. Now the RCC has its own private interpretation which is not Biblical. Look at it:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
--The Scripture is not up for "private interpretation." In case you are confused about that statement, here is what it means. The RCC has a "private interpretation" of the Bible. They force all their members to believe in their private interpretation. That means its members, like you, must disobey many of the explicit commands of Scripture because you must follow their private interpretation--an interpretation given by sinful men, and not of God.

Here is what you are disobeying by giving into the RCC.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--But the priest interprets it for you. You can't do this on your own. It is against the Catechism.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
--Their error was not knowing the scriptures; it wasn't in not knowing the Catechism.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
--Judgment would soon fall on Israel, God's people, because they had neglected to study God's Word. They had a "lack of knowledge" concerning it.


Feelings count for nothing. I tried to make that clear.
If I have to work every day, and the alarm goes off, then that means I have to get up.
What if I say: "I don't feel like it." "I feel like staying in bed today and not going to work."
If that is the attitude I take toward life I soon would be fired and my life would end up in disaster. One does't run their life by their feelings. One is not saved according to their feelings. It is Christ that saves, not feelings.
What kind of relationship do you have with Christ? And how did you come to have this relationship? What is it based on?

Your profile simply says:
"The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ under which we receive forgiveness for our sins."
--That is a fact. It doesn't indicate a relationship (which the question was asking for).

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--He was speaking of false teachers coming bringing their false doctrine. The fruit is the false doctrine, not "good works" as many suppose. I know you by the doctrine you post, the doctrine you defend. Yes, I am sola scriptura, and by the Bible I judge:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--I ask: If what is posted is continually against what the Bible says, is it because there is no spiritual light in this person? And I answer: That is a real possibility. Then I work from that premise.
I also work from this premise: It is impossible for a Catholic to both understand the gospel, and then know what the RCC teaches about how to be saved, and be truly saved at the same time. In fact it is impossible for the true gospel and the salvation that the RCC teaches are exact contrary to each other. One must choose one or the other.
It is like Islam. You must choose. One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time. A choice must be made.

I base my salvation on the promises of God's Word, not an experience. Experiences fail. They are subjective. God's Word never fails. Christ never fails. Salvation is based on the Christ of the Bible, not a mystical Christ that is found outside of the Bible.

I will disagree. But I will not even agree to disagree, because I know you are wrong.
You must be born again. If you want to see spiritual truth for what it is you must be born again. But first you must find out what that really means, and it has nothing to do with baptism.

Of course, the old "I am right and you are wrong argument from the typical hardcore Fundamentalist Baptist follower who hides behind his interpretation of the Scriptures. Okay, you are right and I am wrong along with billions of other orthodox Christians and mainline Protestants - happy now?

I have patiently presented to you biblical truth. Show me where I am wrong. If I am wrong I will change my beliefs. If you are wrong you need to change yours. Let the Bible be our authority. Agreed?

You have said that I am erroneous. Therefore you need to respond with evidence "how am I erroneous"?

You are erroneous with your attempt to define the relationship I have with Christ. You quoted my statement in my profile and you cannot accept what I said at face value, but instead respond with your own definition of what I said. A conversation between two people requires a certain amount of acceptance and respect for what the other person says. You certainly have no idea of my terrible past and not much of how I am a this moment in time.

We all as Christians have this relationship with Christ, one which differs from person to person and just because yours is one particular way, does not mean that mine must be the same and that does not mean that I am somehow wrong. Perhaps it is because of the fundamentalist viewpoint you have that will not allow you to see something different that others may see or believe regarding the Christian way than what you have come to believe for yourself. Some Catholics I know have this same problem as well.

As for the Scriptures, it is pointless to debate them anymore as the "biblical truth" you have is what you believe to be the truth, even though many other Christian faith traditions other than us Catholics would disagree with your conclusions.

You are a Fundamental Baptist Christian and I am an Catholic Christian with an orthodox belief and that in itself puts us so far apart it isn't funny. I could point out Scripture after Scripture validating my Church's teachings and you would never agree to any interpretation other than yours, because as you said before you are the one who is right. Well, just maybe you aren't.

 

[utilyan]

Because they took Christ "too literally" - notice that not one of the 12 "bites Christ" in John 6??

Notice that in Matt 16 - Christ hammers the 12 for "taking him too literally" on the subject of bread?

So was Peter's response sarcastic?

If it was mistaken Jesus would have corrected them. Again we show multiple examples where Jesus is lamb of God, the vine, son of God.......no body leaves then.

Jesus knows how to communicate. And he's not a jerk to vilify on another's easily corrected ignorance.

 

[utilyan]

Oh boy, Let me show you once again the post you keep declaring I am misrepresenting...

steaver said: ↑
"As you can clearly see by the responses from a couple of Catholics here on this board, faith in Jesus Christ and confessing He is Lord is not necessary for salvation".

Utilyan answered:
"Jesus never gave that as a requirement for the kingdom of heaven.

But that formula is found:

9and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”

Except SATAN is the one saying it. To worship FEAR. Kneel before me OR ELSE.

The way of evil is with evil. Insisting absolutes. A spiritual gun to your head is what Satan calls Christianity.

Jesus would never do that because Jesus is NOT EVIL."

He even adds that if Jesus required faith in Him and a confession He is Lord it would be EVIL!!!

You guys do understand that I have the word for word COMPLETE post that you make, so everyone can see I have taken nothing out of context and have left no words of you guys out?

That's so cute.

Here Steaver,

To get into heaven. One is absolutely REQUIRED to Love Jesus.

In heaven.....Is there a Lord? Does he have a name? And if anyone is in heaven is the obvious indeed obvious?

The counterpoint (is that a word?) is everyone in hell knows Jesus is Lord too.


The principles which God sacrifices for is God. Jesus' love of God is only perceived by the love of neighbors.

 

[steaver]

That's so cute.

Here Steaver,

To get into heaven. One is absolutely REQUIRED to Love Jesus.

Wonderful! Now stop writing post saying these Biblical REQUIREMENTS are teachings of satan.

1 Co 16:22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

John 8:24, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins".

 

[DHK]

Of course, the old "I am right and you are wrong argument from the typical hardcore Fundamentalist Baptist follower who hides behind his interpretation of the Scriptures. Okay, you are right and I am wrong along with billions of other orthodox Christians and mainline Protestants - happy now?

I am saddened by your refusal to either make an attempt to understand the scripture or to accept it, or to submit to it. It is our only and final authority. It is not a matter of "me" being right, but rather a matter of God being right.

You are erroneous with your attempt to define the relationship I have with Christ. You quoted my statement in my profile and you cannot accept what I said at face value, but instead respond with your own definition of what I said. A conversation between two people requires a certain amount of acceptance and respect for what the other person says. You certainly have no idea of my terrible past and not much of how I am a this moment in time.

You don't have to tell me of your past. I am sorry if you had a hard time in the past. If you trust Christ as your Savior you can commit that to Him, and he will take care of it for you.
I can explain things to you. But the relationship I speak of requiring two people is a relationship between Christ and the one whom Christ has saved, presumably yourself if that is true. But Christ does not do that through the RCC. If you think he has done that through the RCC then you are not saved. That is the point of this thread.
If you are saved and do have a relationship how did it come about? The RCC says it came through baptism. No relationship comes through baptism. How then do you have a relationship with Christ?

We all as Christians have this relationship with Christ, one which differs from person to person

That is not what Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Many claim to be Christians but are not. They don't have a true relationship with Christ.
They call him Lord but Christ says "I don't know you; depart from me." And they end up in the Lake of Fire that burns forever and ever. One cannot pretend to be a Christian; or pretend to have a relationship. Jesus sees right through the heart.

and just because yours is one particular way, does not mean that mine must be the same

False again. Ask Steaver and Martin who are also actively posting on this board. Their testimonies will not vary greatly from mine, though their circumstances may be a bit different. It comes down to the new birth, and what it means to trust Christ. They both have the same understanding as I do, and what happened to me happened to them. I challenge you: ask them and see.

and that does not mean that I am somehow wrong.

Yes it does.
The RCC cannot save.
Works cannot save.
Baptism cannot save.
Only Christ can save.
You are not a Christian if you are not a follower of Christ by faith and faith alone.
You are a follower of the Magesterium of the RCC, and thus a Catholic, not a Christian. Sorry for being so blunt but it is the truth. You can't be both. Which are you going to follow? Christ or the RCC? You can't follow both.

Perhaps it is because of the fundamentalist viewpoint you have that will not allow you to see something different that others may see or believe regarding the Christian way than what you have come to believe for yourself.

Something different? There is truth and error. I see the truth; you see the error. Why are you following something different (error). Look at scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
--A true Christian can have nothing to do with the RCC, for then they would be "unequally yoked together." Truth and error does not mix.

[quote[As for the Scriptures, it is pointless to debate them anymore as the "biblical truth" you have is what you believe to be the truth, even though many other Christian faith traditions other than us Catholics would disagree with your conclusions.[/quote]
Biblical Christians do not deny Biblical truth. Most evangelicals will not deny what I have told you. Who disagrees with me? Cults? Some mainline denominations that are now liberal and have left the fundamentals of the faith. Some of them you don't agree with either as they deny the deity of Christ, a literal hell and heaven, the resurrection of Christ, etc. Of course they disagree with me. But of evangelical churches concerning the matters of salvation that I have presented to you, who disagrees?

You are a Fundamental Baptist Christian and I am an Catholic Christian with an orthodox belief and that in itself puts us so far apart it isn't funny. I could point out Scripture after Scripture validating my Church's teachings and you would never agree to any interpretation other than yours, because as you said before you are the one who is right. Well, just maybe you aren't.

Who disagrees with me? My teachings are orthodox in the respect that they are the historic teachings of the Christian faith passed down from the apostles through the early Christians until now. Prove me wrong.
Your beliefs come from paganism: transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, the assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, the rosary, praying to the dead, etc. These are anti-Biblical doctrines, not found in the Scriptures whose origin is in paganism.

Who is right? The one who can defend their faith in the Word of God; the one who has a true and living faith with Christ.

The Bible says:
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--Let me ask you this one final question:

Does the spirit that dwells in you bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?
How do you know?

 

[utilyan]

Wonderful! Now stop writing post saying these Biblical REQUIREMENTS are teachings of satan.

1 Co 16:22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

John 8:24, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins".

I haven't changed position. Amen to all the bible verses you said.

None of those command WORSHIP me and You will enter the kingdom.


You know for folks who insist that anything we DO won't make or break us salvation-wise, goes to show FAITH ALONE........false doctrine.

 

[DHK]

I haven't changed position. Amen to all the bible verses you said.

None of those command WORSHIP me and You will enter the kingdom.


You know for folks who insist that anything we DO won't make or break us salvation-wise, goes to show FAITH ALONE........false doctrine.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[utilyan]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I agree with that scripture. Does my cooperation matter though?

By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.


DHK if you want to flesh out the difference we may have to take a close look at words and what they mean.

Example Justification, Regeneration, Saved.



I could look at a cross for example my faith tells me the guy next to me is JUSTIFIED by the cross. Like God opens the door. But it still on him if he wants to walk in, he needs to cooperate. And if he DOES cooperate the credit still goes to God, The merit works to perfect his faith and regeneration.

From the beginning of the cross I can say this guy has been saved. As he cooperates he is being saved, when he reaches perfect faith he will be saved.

 

[steaver]

I haven't changed position. Amen to all the bible verses you said.

None of those command WORSHIP me and You will enter the kingdom.


You know for folks who insist that anything we DO won't make or break us salvation-wise, goes to show FAITH ALONE........false doctrine.

They command FAITH in Jesus Christ to enter the Kingdom. You argued over and over a Jew or a Muslim could REJECT faith in Jesus Christ and still be saved as long as they loved their neighbour. You even declared Jesus' teaching on this FAITH that of satans.

As far as "worshiping" goes...

John 4:23-24, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit ..." (John 3 born again, Romans 8 must have the Spirit of Christ/God)

Question for you, Did Jesus claim to be God? Do you worship God/Jesus in spirit?

 

[Adonia]

I am saddened by your refusal to either make an attempt to understand the scripture or to accept it, or to submit to it. It is our only and final authority. It is not a matter of "me" being right, but rather a matter of God being right.

You don't have to tell me of your past. I am sorry if you had a hard time in the past. If you trust Christ as your Savior you can commit that to Him, and he will take care of it for you.
I can explain things to you. But the relationship I speak of requiring two people is a relationship between Christ and the one whom Christ has saved, presumably yourself if that is true. But Christ does not do that through the RCC. If you think he has done that through the RCC then you are not saved. That is the point of this thread.
If you are saved and do have a relationship how did it come about? The RCC says it came through baptism. No relationship comes through baptism. How then do you have a relationship with Christ?


That is not what Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Many claim to be Christians but are not. They don't have a true relationship with Christ.
They call him Lord but Christ says "I don't know you; depart from me." And they end up in the Lake of Fire that burns forever and ever. One cannot pretend to be a Christian; or pretend to have a relationship. Jesus sees right through the heart.


False again. Ask Steaver and Martin who are also actively posting on this board. Their testimonies will not vary greatly from mine, though their circumstances may be a bit different. It comes down to the new birth, and what it means to trust Christ. They both have the same understanding as I do, and what happened to me happened to them. I challenge you: ask them and see.

Yes it does.
The RCC cannot save.
Works cannot save.
Baptism cannot save.
Only Christ can save.
You are not a Christian if you are not a follower of Christ by faith and faith alone.
You are a follower of the Magesterium of the RCC, and thus a Catholic, not a Christian. Sorry for being so blunt but it is the truth. You can't be both. Which are you going to follow? Christ or the RCC? You can't follow both.

Something different? There is truth and error. I see the truth; you see the error. Why are you following something different (error). Look at scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
--A true Christian can have nothing to do with the RCC, for then they would be "unequally yoked together." Truth and error does not mix.

[quote[As for the Scriptures, it is pointless to debate them anymore as the "biblical truth" you have is what you believe to be the truth, even though many other Christian faith traditions other than us Catholics would disagree with your conclusions.

Biblical Christians do not deny Biblical truth. Most evangelicals will not deny what I have told you. Who disagrees with me? Cults? Some mainline denominations that are now liberal and have left the fundamentals of the faith. Some of them you don't agree with either as they deny the deity of Christ, a literal hell and heaven, the resurrection of Christ, etc. Of course they disagree with me. But of evangelical churches concerning the matters of salvation that I have presented to you, who disagrees?


Who disagrees with me? My teachings are orthodox in the respect that they are the historic teachings of the Christian faith passed down from the apostles through the early Christians until now. Prove me wrong.
Your beliefs come from paganism: transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, the assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, the rosary, praying to the dead, etc. These are anti-Biblical doctrines, not found in the Scriptures whose origin is in paganism.

Who is right? The one who can defend their faith in the Word of God; the one who has a true and living faith with Christ.

The Bible says:
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--Let me ask you this one final question:

Does the spirit that dwells in you bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?
How do you know?[/QUOTE]

Now YOU are the one with orthodox Christian beliefs? I'll put that one down next to the "1st Baptist Church of Jerusalem". Bless your heart, you are indeed so precious.

 

[DHK]

I agree with that scripture. Does my cooperation matter though?

By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.


DHK if you want to flesh out the difference we may have to take a close look at words and what they mean.

Example Justification, Regeneration, Saved.

They are not long drawn out processes, one taking place one day and the others taking place on other days. All of the above events you just mentioned take place simultaneously, instantaneously, so that when a person is saved he wouldn't know the difference.
Therefore when a person is saved he is saved/justified it is by faith and faith alone according to Romans 5:1. One cannot read anything else into that verse except faith alone.

I could look at a cross for example my faith tells me the guy next to me is JUSTIFIED by the cross. Like God opens the door. But it still on him if he wants to walk in, he needs to cooperate. And if he DOES cooperate the credit still goes to God, The merit works to perfect his faith and regeneration.

Then your friend is not telling you the truth.
Jesus hung on the cross and he told you "It is finished." (i.e., "There is nothing more that any person can do.") No cooperation is needed. Accept his gift of salvation by faith. Salvation is all of God. Man does zero; God does it all.

From the beginning of the cross I can say this guy has been saved. As he cooperates he is being saved, when he reaches perfect faith he will be saved.

Man cannot cooperate with God. How much of Christ's blood did he share in shedding? What a ridiculous question in even asking, but you know the answer.

Jesus paid it all.
All to him I owe.
Sin hath left a crimson stain;
He washed it white as snow.