Vicarius filii Dei is still making the rounds apparently.

Bob Ryan, you missed this one.

Why no response? </font>[/QUOTE]Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...

Be veeeeeeery quiet. Methinks the thread is just about done for without waking him up again!



God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

oops! The "Donation of Constantine" was written by Catholics NOT protestants.

oops! The "Donation of Constantine" already confirmed the acceptance of the title "Vicarius Filii Dei" long BEFORE 20th century non-Catholics.

oops! The "Donation of Constantine" was read AND confirmed by NO LESS then TEN Popes - not just lowly ignorant clerics in some village of the dark ages.

oops! The Catholic church would like to "revise" that history "now" and can't find a compelling way to do it.

oops! OTHER Catholic sources ALSO appeal to that SAME fact of history as noted on this thread.

oops! That is an embarrassment to the RCC today and efforts at "revisionist history" are now in full swing.

Now let me ask you a question - "what part" of your tactics so far are supposed to be "compelling" to the objective reader that is not "already a devotee of Catholicism"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Already posted - but you needed to pay attention to the "details".

Will post the response "again" in case "repetition" is the key.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Read - and then "re-read" that last paragraph to see the "response" to your post.

This is "the basics" but at the risk of repetition I re-post still "waiting" for that "Cogent, objective, compelling reply" from our Catholic bretheren.

In Christ,

Bob

 

She predicted the Second Coming at least four different times. All four dates came and went. Each time she just gave a new date and a new prophesy.

False prophesy - therefore a false prophet.

How can you know this and continue to follow her?

 

You have my interest Trying2Understand - do you have "a quote" from a pro-SDA document quoting Ellen White as claiming some vision(s) that gave 4 specific dates for the 2nd coming?

Or is it "more correct" to say that she did not have a single vision predicting a specific date?

Which "detail" is correct?

Why don't you provide the quotes for the visions showing specific dates for the 2nd coming. Even "one" date will do.

(But of course, that would be the "details" to go along with your "accusation" and I know that is a sore spot with RC posts these days).

In the mean time - "my point" is that the doctrinal differences "alone" should require non-SDAs to consider Ellen White to be a false prophets - and all SDAs agree on that point. Doctrinal purity in the messages and visions from God is a test of a prophet. This has been stated before "as a detail" but our RC bretheren have not been good at details so far.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Some stuff I have found about Ellen White. I do not have these books to reference them, so if you can provide context to refute them, that's fine. But here's what I've found:

Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. Christ's Object Lessons, p. 155

"If any among us are sick, let us not dishonor God by applying to earthly physicians, but apply to the God of Israel. If we follow his directions (James 5:14, 15) the sick will be healed. God's promise cannot fail. Have faith in God, and trust wholly in him, that when Christ who is our life shall appear we may appear with him in glory." (To Those who are receiving the seal of the living God, January 31, 1849)

NOTE: Mrs. White later reversed herself and went to see physicians quite regularly. The SDA church later developed a substantial medical ministry that employed many physicians. Hopefully no one followed her early counsel, which was obviously not inspired.

"Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children."(Spalding and Magan, p. 211)

(So much for distinction of meats...)

And, here are some quotations about her false prophecies for the end of the world:

http://www.ellenwhite.org/criticd.htm

I'm just passing this stuff on. Someone else with more interest can verify/nullify them.

 

Is "this" the part where you show an actual quote from Ellen White saying that she has had a vision where God set a date for the 2nd coming?

Or are we still "waiting" for that "detail" to go with the "accusation"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Did I say anything about that, Bob? I supplied a web link which you are free to read. I could really care less about her prophecies, because she is not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and has no authority to make such prophecies.

Now, go spend an hour in front of our Eucharistic Lord and let Him melt your heart. :-D

 

She predicted the Second Coming at least four different times. All four dates came and went. Each time she just gave a new date and a new prophesy.

False prophesy - therefore a false prophet.
</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Ellen White predicts Second Coming to be in 1843:

“ I have seen the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed." Early Writings (of Ellen White)p. 74.


Ellen White predicts Second Coming to be in 1844:

“and the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844.”
Early Writings, p. 236.



Confirmation by James White that Ellen White predicted Second Coming to be in 1845:

“It is well known that many were expecting the Lord to come at the 7th month, 1845. That Christ would come We firmly believed.”
A Word to the Little Flock (by James White) p.22.


Ellen White predicts that Second Coming will be in 1850:

“ In a view given June 27,1850, my accompanying angel said, “time is almost finished.” “But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months.”
Early Writings (of Ellen White)p. 64, 67.


Ellen White again predicts Second Coming to be in 1850:

“Some are looking to far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected; therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished and that time can last but a very little longer.” Early Writings (of Ellen White) p. 58.


Ellen White predicts the Second Coming to be between 1856 and some future date within a then living person's life time:

"I was shown the company present at the Conference, Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Ellen G. White, 1Testimonies, p. 131-132. May 27,1856


Is anyone who was alive in 1856 still alive?

Ellen White has failed several times in predicting the Second Coming.

What should this tell you about Ellen White as a prophet?

 

Thank you for that list Trying2understand - it clearly shows that you failed to show EVEN ONE case where Ellen White claimed to have a vision where God indicated a specific time to her about the second coming.

I find it amazingly "consistent" with our RC bretheren, that claims are followed by "no facts" supporting the charges made.

Surely you should be able to form at least one argument that actually has supporting "facts" whose "details" support your case.

This just isn't that hard.

You can still differ with anyone you choose - but you "should" be able to "form a case" and have actual details that "support" your charges.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have made this exceedingly "easy" for Trying2Understand. He claims there are FOUR specific dates predicted in vision.

Knowing he will completely fail at finding four - I lower the bar FOR Trying2Understand and offer to give him the point if he can find even ONE.

Notice his failed attempts.

That "prediction" came years AFTER 1843. It was not a "prediction" of ANY future event. Rather it was a historic perspective on PAST events. The vision in question "predicted" NO date for the 2nd coming of Christ. Rather it "explained" a PAST event, a PAST failure of the Millerites.

But then that would be "the details". It is very hard to "predict" an event in 1843 when one is writing years AFTERwards.

Another "failed" attempt by Trying2understand. Quoting ANOTHER statement by Ellen White introduced YEARS AFTER 1844. A statement that is nothing more than a retrospective look at HISTORY in the year 1844 NOT a "prediction" about any FUTURE event.

THIS failed attempt by Trying2Understand to SHOW a "vision" quoted by Ellen White (or anybody else) that predicted ANY specific date for the 2nd coming - is poorly disguised. IN this case James White is stating that the teenage Ellen Harmon expected Christ to come in 1844 (he gets his date wrong) - BUT still it shows NO vision being quoted by Ellen Harmon (A 16 year old who had had NO visions prior to the failed dates in 1844) predicting ANY specific date for the 2nd coming.

Trying- keeps-trying our patience as he goes from one failed attempt to the next with no "specific date" being referenced by a vision "predicting" the 2nd coming. (Which was THE Point of his charge).

This is NOT a predicted "DATE". Rather it is a statement that we are in the end of time - and time is short. Other than stating that time is short and almost finished it makes NO "prediction" about a "specific date" NOR does it select a date "in the 1850's".

Paul states in 1Thess4 "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN will be caught up together with THEM in the air" but does not "predict" a date in the first century by doing so. No specific "DATE" was predicted - only the concept that time is short.

Again - NO "specific date" and no "vision predicting a specific date".

The "only argument" trying2understand is able to "prove in the details" that Ellen White kept saying the time is "short".

1 Cor 7:29 "Time IS SHORT from now on those who have wives should live as if they had none".

Going on a crusade against those prophets that claim that time "is short" in the NT age will cut across a lot of road.

"WE who ARE alive AND remain will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the air" 1Thess 4:13-16.

NO specific date "predicted".

The "best" argument is that "a SHORT time" is predicted with no actual DATE - and certainly no SPECIFIC date set EITHER in the case of Paul or in the case of Ellen White.

Having failed to "show a SPECIFIC DATE" predicted by even ONE vision, trying2understand settles for showing that "Time is SHORT" and attempt to twist that into a "specific DATE set".

IF you had claimed "Ellen White claimed to have visions indicating that time was very SHORT" I would not have challenged you statements - because I would have known that "the details" supported your "claim".

But as it is - this is just "another example" of RC lack of attention to "detail".

No wonder we keep going around on the point that it was NOT the NON-CAtholics that introduced Vicarius Filii Dei in the dark ages - and it is a Catholic document that PROVES it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thank you - but obvisouly "no" would be the answer. (Though I can see how that line of reasoning fits well with your own recognition of the Historic Catholic Document on Vicarius Filii Dei in your efforts to deny it.)

I "suppose" we "could" consider them to be a "cult" if only they would - pray to their ancestors, pray to their dead, pray to church leaders or prophets that have died, declare Ellen White to be "co-redemptrix" or "Queen of Heaven" or worship her by adoring her at her altars - or even making altars to their dead, their leaders etc.

Or if they called their church leaders by the title "The Holy Father" - or if they practiced Bible Burning or if they made up things like "Indulgences" for the dead etc, if they declared holy wars on opposing Christian denominations or held to a denominational policy of "extermination" and refused even to this day to renounce such a horrible idea. Or if they boldly declared that "Billy Graham himself would be burned at the stake if he preached then what he preaches today" speaking of some time when they were in the supposed majority.

I 'suppose' if they did that you "might" consider them a cult. But then people are usually generous enough so that EVEN if a denomination goes to such extremes - they are still not regarded as a cult. (MAybe there needs to be a "line" that we as Christians will not cross).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ooops - I forgot to mention that thing about the RCC claiming that IT was practicing idolatry if it was wrong about the Eucharist and the bread BEING God - since they truly worship it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thank you for that humerous commentary.