Glen Seeker
New Member
The fact remains.
Bogus Document
Bogus Title
Bogus Argument
Bogus Document
Bogus Title
Bogus Argument
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
vicarivs filii dei
- Thread starter Rakka Rage
- Start date
trying2understand
New Member
Bob, I've just got to ask.
What IS with ALL the "use" of "CAPTIAL letters" and QUOTATION "marks"?
Ron
Aside from the document being a forgery…without the (caps added for emphasis) there is no “title” here for Peter. If it was a “title”, vicar should also have been capitalized along with Son of God. The only capitalization here for vicar was added for emphasis by the people saying this is the title for Popes, and adds up to 666. The caps added for emphasis is very deceiving.
God Bless
GraceSaves
New Member
In this site's desperation to prove that the papacy is the antiChrist, the author actually states that in fact, Peter was in Rome.
"So 666 is a number associated with pagan sun-worship, which originated in the mysteries of ancient pagan Babylon. In Revelation 666 is associated with the number of the beast (from the sea), the AntiChrist, and the harlot church of Mystery Babylon. So just who is Babylon?-
1 Pet 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
Read what most *any* commentary says about the above verse and who "Babylon" is. There is absolutely no evidence that Peter ever ministered in literal ancient Babylon. However, early Christians used the term "Babylon" as a veiled code word for a particular city, so as to avoid persecution from that pagan power. That city is Rome."
Amazing how they contract themselves with ease. So, Rakka, do you believe that Peter was in Rome, preaching and teaching there?
God bless,
Grant
[ June 10, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]
"So 666 is a number associated with pagan sun-worship, which originated in the mysteries of ancient pagan Babylon. In Revelation 666 is associated with the number of the beast (from the sea), the AntiChrist, and the harlot church of Mystery Babylon. So just who is Babylon?-
1 Pet 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
Read what most *any* commentary says about the above verse and who "Babylon" is. There is absolutely no evidence that Peter ever ministered in literal ancient Babylon. However, early Christians used the term "Babylon" as a veiled code word for a particular city, so as to avoid persecution from that pagan power. That city is Rome."
Amazing how they contract themselves with ease. So, Rakka, do you believe that Peter was in Rome, preaching and teaching there?
God bless,
Grant
[ June 10, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]
GraceSaves
New Member
Scripture does not give us many details about the antiChrist, but it does give one firm piece of evidence to look for: He will deny that Christ has come in the flesh.
If that criteria has not been met, then you do not have the antiChrist. So unless ALL OF THE POPES, since you claim that 666 applies to a title, and not a name, must have denied the Incarnation.
I'll even let you pick a single Pope who has denied the Incarnation of Christ.
Happy hunting.
God bless,
Grant
If that criteria has not been met, then you do not have the antiChrist. So unless ALL OF THE POPES, since you claim that 666 applies to a title, and not a name, must have denied the Incarnation.
I'll even let you pick a single Pope who has denied the Incarnation of Christ.
Happy hunting.
God bless,
Grant
Here is something about this nonsense, "Vicarius Fili Dei....
The actual Latin phrase is: "Vicarius Filii Dei," which means "Vicar of the Son of God." I will quote from an excellent book, CATHOLIC REPLIES, BY James J. Drummey, ISBN: 0-9649087-0-0. It is a Question and Answer book, so you will see both questions given and the answer provided. It makes for interesting reading and applies to the subject you introduced:
Quote....
Q. I reluctantly admit that my faith was shaken after reading a book called National Sunday Law by an A. Jan Marcussen, especially the interpretation of "Vicarius Filii Deill as Roman numerals that add up to 666. Can you comment? - M.Y., Maryland
A. We are not familiar with the book, but the ludicrous, if not malicious, attempt to equate the Holy Father with Satan (666 is reputed to be the mark of the beast, according to Revelation 13:18) has been convincingly demolished by Karl Keating on pages 221-222 of Catholicism and Fundamentalism.
One of the titles of the Pope is Vicar of Christ (Vicarius Christi), but the numerical value of those letters do not add up to 666. So anti-Catholics like Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion, have invented a new title for the Pope, Vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius Filii Dei) because those letters do add up to the number of the beast. The most commonly accepted theory is that the beast of Revelation was the Emperor Nero Caesar, who was an unmerciful persecutor of the early Christians and whose name adds up to 666. But if you want to play games with people's names, says Karl Keating, there are lots of individuals who could be identified as the beast, including Martin Luther, whose name in Latin also totals 666!
Q. I am writing to ask you about the papal title "Vicarius Filii Dei." A letter from Bill Jackson quotes you as saying: it... anti-Catholics like Ralph Woodrow have invented a new title, Vicar of the Son of God," etc. He then quotes from "Our Sunday Visitor" (April 18, 1915) that "the letters inscribed on the Pope's miter are Vicarius Filii Dei." I have come to understand over recent years that the number 666 can be applied to a multitude of names, so I have no desire to make some big point regarding a papal title. But can you clarify the above discrepancy? Was "Our Sunday Visitor" in error or has it, perhaps, been misquoted? Is it possible that both titles have been used within the Roman Catholic Church?
- Ralph Woodrow, California
A. Mr. Woodrow is head of an organization called the Evangelistic Association and author of Babylon Mystery Religion, a book that, as Karl Keating has demonstrated in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, is filled with erroneous statements about the Catholic religion, including the allegation that one of the Pope's titles is Vicar of the Son of God. If numerical values are assigned to the Latinized version of that title (Vicarius Filii Dei), said Mr. Woodrow in his book, the letters add up to 666, which Revelation 13:18 tells us is the number of the beast. This "revelation" has led many gullible people to believe that the Pope is the beast.
We are happy to know that Mr. Woodrow has come to realize that the number 666 can be applied to a multitude of names, and we are glad to have the opportunity to respond to his question about the quote that reportedly appeared in Our Sunday Visitor.
We called the Sunday Visitor and spoke to Robert P. Lockwood, president of the OSV corporation. Mr. Lockwood told us that he had looked into this allegation before and discovered that Fr. John Noll, in a column entitled "Bureau of Information" that appeared in the April 18, 1915 issue of Our Sunday Visitor, had indeed said that the letters inscribed on the Pope's miter are Vicarius Filii Dei.
Mr. Lockwood said that he did not know what Fr. Noll's source was, that there is no way of discovering his source since then-Archbishop Noll died in 1956, and that it was surely just a mistake made by a very busy priest, one who wrote virtually all the copy for the newspaper in its early years (OSV began publication in 1912).
That assigning the title "Vicar of the Son of God" to the Holy Father may have been a mistake is further indicated by the fact that Fr. Noll, in the same column, said that "the Bishop of Rome, as head of the Church, was given the title 'Vicar of Christ,"' which in Latin is Vicarius Christi and does not add up to 666. That, of course, is the correct title, and not Vicar of the Son of God.
We can also assume that it was a mistake from the fact that we have found no corroboration anywhere that any Pope was ever called Vicar of the Son of God. A recent (1967) edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia lists the following titles of the Holy Father: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Chief of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, and Sovereign of the State of Vatican City.
Well, maybe Vicar of the Son of God was a title in use when Fr. Noll wrote his column. Not true. According to the 1911 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia, the title pope was used solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth. Besides the bishopric of the Roman Diocese, certain other dignities are held by the pope as well as the supreme and universal pastorate: he is Archbishop of the Roman Province, Primate of Italy and the adjacent islands, and sole Patriarch of the Western Church."
The same article lists the "most noteworthy" titles of the Holy Father as Papa, Summus Pontifex, Pontifex Maximus, and Servus Servorum Dei. Another article, under the heading "Vicar of Christ," said that some popes had been called Vicar of St. Peter and Vicar of the Apostolic See, and Pope Nicholas III (1277-1280) was known as Vicar of God. But no pope was called Vicar of the Son of God.
We also looked into whether titles of any kind have appeared on miters, the liturgical headdress worn by popes, cardinals, abbots, and bishops of the Latin Rite. While miters were of different shapes over the centuries, and were sometimes adorned with gold embroidery and even precious stones, there is no indication of any words or titles being written on them.
In the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, there are sketches of ten miters of various shapes that were in use from the 11th to the 20th century, with no writing on them. There is also a picture of an elaborate 16th-century miter with paintings of scenes from our Lord's life, but no words or titles.
And if you want to see a papal miter up close, you can visit the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., and view the miter worn by Pope Paul VI during his pontificate. The miter is enclosed in a glass case and, as you walk around the case, you will not see any writing on his miter.
So those who base their charge that the Pope is the beast of Revelation solely on a single mistake in a column written eight decades ago are on very shaky ground. Their case is further shredded by a total lack of historical evidence to back up their allegation.
Finally, the charge is contrary to all common sense. In just our own century, for example, please tell us what Pontiff resembles the evil beast of Revelation? Pope St. Pius X? Benedict XV? Pius XI? Pius XII? John XXIII? Paul VI? John Paul II? How many magnificent documents have these men written, reaffirming teachings that go back to Christ Himself. How many thousands of talks have they given, calling people to holiness? How many thousands of miles has John Paul II traveled, urging those on every continent to follow Christ?
Have those who believe the Holy Father to be an agent of Satan ever listened to one of his talks and wondered how a man who sounds so good could be so bad? Have they ever noticed how often the Pope quotes from the Bible that they revere? Did they watch the way that John Paul challenged President Clinton to his face on the evil of abortion in Denver in August 1993? Did they watch the way the Holy Father called the youth of the world to serve Christ, and the tremendous enthusiasm this septuagenarian was able to generate among teenagers and young adults?
The man has an aura of goodness and holiness about him, and that is why people of all faiths, and of none, are so attracted to him and to what he says. He is a moral and spiritual lighthouse in a world that is foundering on the rocks of sin and secularism. All faithful Catholics and other Christians ought to be thrilled to have a spiritual leader who has the courage to proclaim "the splendor of truth" to a culture steeped in falsehood.
Satan is the "father of lies" (John 8:44), our Lord said. John Paul is an apostle of truth, guided to all truth by the "Spirit of truth" promised by Jesus at the Last Supper (John 16:13). This makes the Holy Father not an ally but an enemy of Satan. Are those who denounce the Pope so blind, so caught up in an unreasonable hatred of the papacy, that they cannot recognize that he is doing the work of God and not the work of the Devil?
Mr. Woodrow, Mr. Jackson, and others are certainly free to disagree with the teachings of the Pope and the Catholic Church, but they ought to make sure that their reasons for disagreement are not based on falsehood. For in disputing the Catholic Church, they are disputing what St. Paul called "the pillar and bulwark of truth" (I Timothy 3:15).
Unquote...
I will say in closing that such ridiculous charges brought against the Catholic Church was the reason I investigated her. In my youth, I wondered why so many bad things being said about her and I just had to find out...
I examined....
I became a Catholic!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church (1 Tim 3:15)
The actual Latin phrase is: "Vicarius Filii Dei," which means "Vicar of the Son of God." I will quote from an excellent book, CATHOLIC REPLIES, BY James J. Drummey, ISBN: 0-9649087-0-0. It is a Question and Answer book, so you will see both questions given and the answer provided. It makes for interesting reading and applies to the subject you introduced:
Quote....
Q. I reluctantly admit that my faith was shaken after reading a book called National Sunday Law by an A. Jan Marcussen, especially the interpretation of "Vicarius Filii Deill as Roman numerals that add up to 666. Can you comment? - M.Y., Maryland
A. We are not familiar with the book, but the ludicrous, if not malicious, attempt to equate the Holy Father with Satan (666 is reputed to be the mark of the beast, according to Revelation 13:18) has been convincingly demolished by Karl Keating on pages 221-222 of Catholicism and Fundamentalism.
One of the titles of the Pope is Vicar of Christ (Vicarius Christi), but the numerical value of those letters do not add up to 666. So anti-Catholics like Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion, have invented a new title for the Pope, Vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius Filii Dei) because those letters do add up to the number of the beast. The most commonly accepted theory is that the beast of Revelation was the Emperor Nero Caesar, who was an unmerciful persecutor of the early Christians and whose name adds up to 666. But if you want to play games with people's names, says Karl Keating, there are lots of individuals who could be identified as the beast, including Martin Luther, whose name in Latin also totals 666!
Q. I am writing to ask you about the papal title "Vicarius Filii Dei." A letter from Bill Jackson quotes you as saying: it... anti-Catholics like Ralph Woodrow have invented a new title, Vicar of the Son of God," etc. He then quotes from "Our Sunday Visitor" (April 18, 1915) that "the letters inscribed on the Pope's miter are Vicarius Filii Dei." I have come to understand over recent years that the number 666 can be applied to a multitude of names, so I have no desire to make some big point regarding a papal title. But can you clarify the above discrepancy? Was "Our Sunday Visitor" in error or has it, perhaps, been misquoted? Is it possible that both titles have been used within the Roman Catholic Church?
- Ralph Woodrow, California
A. Mr. Woodrow is head of an organization called the Evangelistic Association and author of Babylon Mystery Religion, a book that, as Karl Keating has demonstrated in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, is filled with erroneous statements about the Catholic religion, including the allegation that one of the Pope's titles is Vicar of the Son of God. If numerical values are assigned to the Latinized version of that title (Vicarius Filii Dei), said Mr. Woodrow in his book, the letters add up to 666, which Revelation 13:18 tells us is the number of the beast. This "revelation" has led many gullible people to believe that the Pope is the beast.
We are happy to know that Mr. Woodrow has come to realize that the number 666 can be applied to a multitude of names, and we are glad to have the opportunity to respond to his question about the quote that reportedly appeared in Our Sunday Visitor.
We called the Sunday Visitor and spoke to Robert P. Lockwood, president of the OSV corporation. Mr. Lockwood told us that he had looked into this allegation before and discovered that Fr. John Noll, in a column entitled "Bureau of Information" that appeared in the April 18, 1915 issue of Our Sunday Visitor, had indeed said that the letters inscribed on the Pope's miter are Vicarius Filii Dei.
Mr. Lockwood said that he did not know what Fr. Noll's source was, that there is no way of discovering his source since then-Archbishop Noll died in 1956, and that it was surely just a mistake made by a very busy priest, one who wrote virtually all the copy for the newspaper in its early years (OSV began publication in 1912).
That assigning the title "Vicar of the Son of God" to the Holy Father may have been a mistake is further indicated by the fact that Fr. Noll, in the same column, said that "the Bishop of Rome, as head of the Church, was given the title 'Vicar of Christ,"' which in Latin is Vicarius Christi and does not add up to 666. That, of course, is the correct title, and not Vicar of the Son of God.
We can also assume that it was a mistake from the fact that we have found no corroboration anywhere that any Pope was ever called Vicar of the Son of God. A recent (1967) edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia lists the following titles of the Holy Father: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Chief of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, and Sovereign of the State of Vatican City.
Well, maybe Vicar of the Son of God was a title in use when Fr. Noll wrote his column. Not true. According to the 1911 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia, the title pope was used solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth. Besides the bishopric of the Roman Diocese, certain other dignities are held by the pope as well as the supreme and universal pastorate: he is Archbishop of the Roman Province, Primate of Italy and the adjacent islands, and sole Patriarch of the Western Church."
The same article lists the "most noteworthy" titles of the Holy Father as Papa, Summus Pontifex, Pontifex Maximus, and Servus Servorum Dei. Another article, under the heading "Vicar of Christ," said that some popes had been called Vicar of St. Peter and Vicar of the Apostolic See, and Pope Nicholas III (1277-1280) was known as Vicar of God. But no pope was called Vicar of the Son of God.
We also looked into whether titles of any kind have appeared on miters, the liturgical headdress worn by popes, cardinals, abbots, and bishops of the Latin Rite. While miters were of different shapes over the centuries, and were sometimes adorned with gold embroidery and even precious stones, there is no indication of any words or titles being written on them.
In the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, there are sketches of ten miters of various shapes that were in use from the 11th to the 20th century, with no writing on them. There is also a picture of an elaborate 16th-century miter with paintings of scenes from our Lord's life, but no words or titles.
And if you want to see a papal miter up close, you can visit the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., and view the miter worn by Pope Paul VI during his pontificate. The miter is enclosed in a glass case and, as you walk around the case, you will not see any writing on his miter.
So those who base their charge that the Pope is the beast of Revelation solely on a single mistake in a column written eight decades ago are on very shaky ground. Their case is further shredded by a total lack of historical evidence to back up their allegation.
Finally, the charge is contrary to all common sense. In just our own century, for example, please tell us what Pontiff resembles the evil beast of Revelation? Pope St. Pius X? Benedict XV? Pius XI? Pius XII? John XXIII? Paul VI? John Paul II? How many magnificent documents have these men written, reaffirming teachings that go back to Christ Himself. How many thousands of talks have they given, calling people to holiness? How many thousands of miles has John Paul II traveled, urging those on every continent to follow Christ?
Have those who believe the Holy Father to be an agent of Satan ever listened to one of his talks and wondered how a man who sounds so good could be so bad? Have they ever noticed how often the Pope quotes from the Bible that they revere? Did they watch the way that John Paul challenged President Clinton to his face on the evil of abortion in Denver in August 1993? Did they watch the way the Holy Father called the youth of the world to serve Christ, and the tremendous enthusiasm this septuagenarian was able to generate among teenagers and young adults?
The man has an aura of goodness and holiness about him, and that is why people of all faiths, and of none, are so attracted to him and to what he says. He is a moral and spiritual lighthouse in a world that is foundering on the rocks of sin and secularism. All faithful Catholics and other Christians ought to be thrilled to have a spiritual leader who has the courage to proclaim "the splendor of truth" to a culture steeped in falsehood.
Satan is the "father of lies" (John 8:44), our Lord said. John Paul is an apostle of truth, guided to all truth by the "Spirit of truth" promised by Jesus at the Last Supper (John 16:13). This makes the Holy Father not an ally but an enemy of Satan. Are those who denounce the Pope so blind, so caught up in an unreasonable hatred of the papacy, that they cannot recognize that he is doing the work of God and not the work of the Devil?
Mr. Woodrow, Mr. Jackson, and others are certainly free to disagree with the teachings of the Pope and the Catholic Church, but they ought to make sure that their reasons for disagreement are not based on falsehood. For in disputing the Catholic Church, they are disputing what St. Paul called "the pillar and bulwark of truth" (I Timothy 3:15).
Unquote...
I will say in closing that such ridiculous charges brought against the Catholic Church was the reason I investigated her. In my youth, I wondered why so many bad things being said about her and I just had to find out...
I examined....
I became a Catholic!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church (1 Tim 3:15)
thessalonian
New Member
"Roman numerals that add up to 666"
This is what I find funny in the whole thing. There isn't a Roman numeral in the whole Bible to my knowledge or anything resembling anything telling us how to make this calculation and figure out who the Antichrist is. Yet when they find a numeric way of linking it to some man then that is the infallible definition of who the antichrist is. Seems problematic from a SS point of view.
This is what I find funny in the whole thing. There isn't a Roman numeral in the whole Bible to my knowledge or anything resembling anything telling us how to make this calculation and figure out who the Antichrist is. Yet when they find a numeric way of linking it to some man then that is the infallible definition of who the antichrist is. Seems problematic from a SS point of view.
trying2understand
New Member
Right, and when it comes to Peter the Rock and whether or not Jesus has brothers and sisters, it's Greek all the way. No way should we consider Aramaic.
Seems that the standards are flexible as long as it serves to undermine the Church.
I am glad Bill brought up anti-Catholic pastor and writer Ralph Woodrow and Karl Keating. I bought Ralph Woodrow's second book which he wrote to retract much of his errors from believing Hislop was a reliable historian. He addresses the 666 issue in Introduction of :The Babylon Connection? I highly recommend Woodrow's second book. He does not even sell his first book because of it's faulty reliance on Hislop as a historian.
Introduction of : The Babylon Connection?
(By Ralph Woodrow author of Babylon Mystery Religion)
Available at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0916938174/qid=1055274622/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9761304-1163944?v=glance
God Bless
Introduction of : The Babylon Connection?
(By Ralph Woodrow author of Babylon Mystery Religion)
Ralph Woodrow (Introduction to The Babylon Connection? )
Available at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0916938174/qid=1055274622/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9761304-1163944?v=glance
God Bless
Rakka Rage
New Member
grant,
do you read your bible?
"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast"
Rakka Rage
New Member
112-53-501 = 666Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hey, adding up the numbers I get:
112-53-501
How does 500 + 1 = 6?
Never heard of that before. Must be some superstitious person trying to come up with ways to slam the Catholic Church to make himself feel better.
Neal
did you get a different answer? what are you talking about? 500+1=6? did your priest tell you that?
Rakka Rage
New Member
who cares about the "forgery" documents
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010406_univ-gregoriana_en.html
at the Holy See refer to him as "The Vicar of Christ" which, if one is the "Vicar of Christ" they are also the "Vicar of the Son of God"...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010406_univ-gregoriana_en.html
at the Holy See refer to him as "The Vicar of Christ" which, if one is the "Vicar of Christ" they are also the "Vicar of the Son of God"...
GraceSaves
New Member
Rakka conviently avoids my post on the antiChrist rejecting the Incarnation. Who is surprised? Anyone? Didn't think so.
God bless,
Grant
God bless,
Grant
GraceSaves
New Member
Really? If that is the case, they can hardly be denying the Incarnation, if the recognize that Jesus Christ, a man, is also the Son of God.
Plus, why doesn't Vicar of Christ add up to 666?
God bless,
Grant
GraceSaves
New Member
112-53-501 = 666Originally posted by Rakka Rage:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hey, adding up the numbers I get:
112-53-501
How does 500 + 1 = 6?
Never heard of that before. Must be some superstitious person trying to come up with ways to slam the Catholic Church to make himself feel better.
Neal
did you get a different answer? what are you talking about? 500+1=6? did your priest tell you that? </font>[/QUOTE]?????? He's not even Catholic! Sheesh.
God bless,
Grant
thessalonian
New Member
112-53-501 = 666Originally posted by Rakka Rage:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hey, adding up the numbers I get:
112-53-501
How does 500 + 1 = 6?
Never heard of that before. Must be some superstitious person trying to come up with ways to slam the Catholic Church to make himself feel better.
Neal
did you get a different answer? what are you talking about? 500+1=6? did your priest tell you that? </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Rak, Neil's Baptist.
You would be the guy to ask, seein as how your baptist also. Where are the roman numerals in the Bible and the instructions for making this calculation, are they in the Bible also? I thought we were supposed to interprut scripture with scripture. Not scripture with Roman numerals. Seems the scriptures aren't going sola anymore.
Is that a tradition of men I smell?!Originally posted by thessalonian:
Where are the roman numerals in the Bible and the instructions for making this calculation, are they in the Bible also? I thought we were supposed to interprut scripture with scripture. Not scripture with Roman numerals. Seems the scriptures aren't going sola anymore.
One more thing, even the made-up "Vicar of the Son of God" is a title, not a name.
"...the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six."
Now, can we all say N-E-R-O ???
"...the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six."
Now, can we all say N-E-R-O ???
neal4christ
New Member
I thought you were adding differently. I understand it now.
It still is just the result of someone with too much time on his hands.By the way. I am not Catholic.
Neal
"Rakka conviently avoids my post on the antiChrist rejecting the Incarnation. Who is surprised? Anyone? Didn't think so."
Hello GraceSaves.
Here is a reply to your above statement.
9 THE NATURE OF CHRIST
Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII Copyright © 1910
According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was separated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of wether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.
Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.
Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gen 26:4-6 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:
Acts 3:25-26 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Rom 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
2 Tim 2:7-8 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Heb 2:14-16 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the humane race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.
Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.
Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.
Rom 8:2-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.
John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:28 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.
John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.
Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. The is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)
Gal 5:17-25 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?
II Jn 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of separating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the opposite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.
John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
BYe for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
Hello GraceSaves.
Here is a reply to your above statement.
9 THE NATURE OF CHRIST
Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII Copyright © 1910
According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was separated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of wether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.
Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.
Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gen 26:4-6 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:
Acts 3:25-26 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Rom 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
2 Tim 2:7-8 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Heb 2:14-16 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the humane race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.
Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.
Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.
Rom 8:2-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.
John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:28 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.
John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.
Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. The is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)
Gal 5:17-25 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?
II Jn 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of separating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the opposite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.
John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
BYe for now. Y. b. in C. Keith