Violence at Pro-life center

[AustinC]

You selectively decide when to "trust God" and when to use what He gave us to help yourself.
You go to the Doctor? Use medicine? Ever?
Why not just trust God? Have insurance on any of your belongings? Medical insurance?
Why not just trust God?

2 Peter 3:14

And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.

Notice that no retaliation against evil is prescribed.

Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 16:24-26

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his lifewill lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

Numbers 25:6-13 [NASB95]

Then behold, one of the sons of Israel came and brought to his relatives a Midianite woman, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of all the congregation of the sons of Israel, while they were weeping at the doorway of the tent of meeting. When Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he arose from the midst of the congregation and took a spear in his hand, and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman, through the body. So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked. Those who died by the plague were 24,000.

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned away My wrath from the sons of Israel in that he was jealous with My jealousy among them, so that I did not destroy the sons of Israel in My jealousy. "Therefore say, 'Behold, I give him My covenant of peace; and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the sons of Israel.'"

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 [NASB95]
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--

A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.

A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.

A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.

A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.

A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.

A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.

 

[AustinC]

Numbers 25:6-13 [NASB95]

Then behold, one of the sons of Israel came and brought to his relatives a Midianite woman, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of all the congregation of the sons of Israel, while they were weeping at the doorway of the tent of meeting. When Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he arose from the midst of the congregation and took a spear in his hand, and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman, through the body. So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked. Those who died by the plague were 24,000.

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned away My wrath from the sons of Israel in that he was jealous with My jealousy among them, so that I did not destroy the sons of Israel in My jealousy. "Therefore say, 'Behold, I give him My covenant of peace; and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the sons of Israel.'"

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 [NASB95]
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--

A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.

A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.

A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.

A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.

A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.

A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.

We're both Phinehas and Solomon government agents of God?

 

[atpollard]

We're both Phinehas and Solomon government agents of God?

Are you saying that we are to do nothing that anyone in scripture did because we are not … [fill in the blank]?

Standing in opposition to evil seems to be part of the job description of the Children of God.
YMMV.

Two or three men, watchmen on the wall standing vigil, wearing the full armor of God, fighting spiritual enemies with spiritual weapons and standing firm against physical enemies with the physical bodies given us … seems like exactly what is needed to defeat this modern cult of Molech one Pro-Life Center at a time.

We don’t need to go looking for trouble, but we shouldn’t be caught by surprise when trouble finds us. Jesus overturned a few tables when the need arose.

 

[AustinC]

Are you saying that we are to do nothing that anyone in scripture did because we are not … [fill in the blank]?

Standing in opposition to evil seems to be part of the job description of the Children of God.
YMMV.

Two or three men, watchmen on the wall standing vigil, wearing the full armor of God, fighting spiritual enemies with spiritual weapons and standing firm against physical enemies with the physical bodies given us … seems like exactly what is needed to defeat this modern cult of Molech one Pro-Life Center at a time.

We don’t need to go looking for trouble, but we shouldn’t be caught by surprise when trouble finds us. Jesus overturned a few tables when the need arose.

Here you move to spiritual warfare. This, atpollard, is where our battle lies. We have two weapons of demonic destruction. They are the Word of God and Prayer. We put on our defensive armor and we attack the gates of hell with God's Word and Prayer. To this we are called.
If a Christian wishes to fight with guns...then join the military or law enforcement. These are legitimate God ordained professions for the Christian to defend the citizenry. If Christians wish to change the corruption of the police force, then join the force and change it from within. But, vigilantism is not and is never promoted in the Bible as a good thing.

 

[atpollard]

Here you move to spiritual warfare. This, atpollard, is where our battle lies. We have two weapons of demonic destruction. They are the Word of God and Prayer. We put on our defensive armor and we attack the gates of hell with God's Word and Prayer. To this we are called.
If a Christian wishes to fight with guns...then join the military or law enforcement. These are legitimate God ordained professions for the Christian to defend the citizenry. If Christians wish to change the corruption of the police force, then join the force and change it from within. But, vigilantism is not and is never promoted in the Bible as a good thing.

Lutherans in the 19th Century would close down bars in out of control western towns with axe-handle clubs … offering the owners the choice of shutting down or having every bottle, window and mirror smashed. Those same clubs rounded up the patrons in the bar and herded them into the service.

I am not sure that I would have chosen their methods, but I would not have stood in opposition to them. NOT because of fear of them, but because MY conscience telling me not to grab an axe handle is not the same as my conscience telling me that God forbids them from grabbing an axe handle.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with only his prayers, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with only his prayers and body, but refused to raise arms against anyone, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with his prayers and fits, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with his prayers and weapons, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

I would, personally, be willing to stand vigil with all of those men and defend that Pro-Life Clinic with my prayers and my body. Because of my past and the blood that I have shed, my conscience would not permit me to take up arms against another … like meat dedicated to idols or a drink to an alcoholic, guns are something that it is unwise for me to ever return to. However I would never mistake MY CONSCIENCE for GOD’S CONSCIENCE. What God permits and forbids me, is for me. Other men answer to our Master directly.

 

[AustinC]

Lutherans in the 19th Century would close down bars in out of control western towns with axe-handle clubs … offering the owners the choice of shutting down or having every bottle, window and mirror smashed. Those same clubs rounded up the patrons in the bar and herded them into the service.

I am not sure that I would have chosen their methods, but I would not have stood in opposition to them. NOT because of fear of them, but because MY conscience telling me not to grab an axe handle is not the same as my conscience telling me that God forbids them from grabbing an axe handle.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with only his prayers, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with only his prayers and body, but refused to raise arms against anyone, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with his prayers and fits, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

If a man chose to stand and defend a Pro-Life Clinic with his prayers and weapons, I would not be willing to pass judgement on his conscience.

I would, personally, be willing to stand vigil with all of those men and defend that Pro-Life Clinic with my prayers and my body. Because of my past and the blood that I have shed, my conscience would not permit me to take up arms against another … like meat dedicated to idols or a drink to an alcoholic, guns are something that it is unwise for me to ever return to. However I would never mistake MY CONSCIENCE for GOD’S CONSCIENCE. What God permits and forbids me, is for me. Other men answer to our Master directly.

I agree with most everything you said.
I make my distinction for gun use as a deterrent based upon Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. These tasks are for God's ordained government agents. This would be true for the past as well as the present.

 

[atpollard]

I agree with most everything you said.
I make my distinction for gun use as a deterrent based upon Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. These tasks are for God's ordained government agents. This would be true for the past as well as the present.

I respectfully disagree. The Apostles were instructed to buy swords to protect themselves from danger and Paul prefaced his call for peace with “as much as it is within your power”. A weapon is a weapon. They are not the first choice, but they are a permitted last resort.

Sort of like a parachute … better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it.

 

[canadyjd]

The action has to start in the churches. The pastors must bring the cause to the pulpit, just as the pastors did in the 1770s….!!

The only “cause” that pastors should concern themselves with is the cause of Christ in the world.

Preach the Word. Call out evil. Preach the truth of scripture which commands non-violent responses to those who do evil.

If we act like the world by responding with violence for violence, none can make a distinction between Christian and pagan.

peace to you

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

1. a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.

1. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether I'm walking around my holler, busting meth labs, making investigations and running a police light on my POV like Barney Fife. I DO enforce Fire Laws/Regulations and I do enforce Medical Practice regulations, and when there is a medical emergency myself, or other EMS personnel/FF are the head-honchos of Incident Command for the duration of the incident and can direct LEO to enforce emergency actions. We outrank LEO in that circumstance just as LEO outrank us in Incident Command during active Threat Incidents. As a Volunteer Fire Dept made up of citizens and founded by a bunch of citizens you could say that my Dept is a bunch of "vigilantes", blessed by the Civil Gov't, by your definition.

2. God gave us 3 Governments with specific responsibilities and minimal overlap.

• Family government where the father is the head
• Church government where the Pastor/Elder/Reverend is the head
• Civil Government where the head of state is the head (Mayor, County Commissioner, Governor, President).

In situations where 1 Government has failed/is failing, it is up to the other 2 governments to fill the void as best they can until the missing government is restored.

• If your neighbor's house is on fire and you and your neighbors choose to start a bucket brigade out of the creek until the Fire Dept arrives then you (the family government) are filling in the temporary void of Civil Government.
• A Civil Government-run Orphanage is filling in for the Family Gov't when the parents are missing
• A Church-run Orphanage is filling in for the Family Gov't when the parents are missing
• And if a Church chooses to protect a Christian Medical Clinic when the Civil Government is refusing to do so adequately then you are filling in the void left by Civil Government.

What is NOT Biblical is using the Family or Church government to act contrary to the law OR for the Church or Family Government to compete with Civil Authority in the realm of Civil Government (think Dark Ages Papacy (Church Gov't), or the Mafia (Family Gov't)).

Likewise it's NOT Biblical for the Civil Government to compete in the realm of Family Government (Mandated Covid Vax) or in Church Government (Civil Mandates to close Churches).

 

[AustinC]

1. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether I'm walking around my holler, busting meth labs, making investigations and running a police light on my POV like Barney Fife. I DO enforce Fire Laws/Regulations and I do enforce Medical Practice regulations, and when there is a medical emergency myself, or other EMS personnel/FF are the head-honchos of Incident Command for the duration of the incident and can direct LEO to enforce emergency actions. We outrank LEO in that circumstance just as LEO outrank us in Incident Command during active Threat Incidents. As a Volunteer Fire Dept made up of citizens and founded by a bunch of citizens you could say that my Dept is a bunch of "vigilantes", blessed by the Civil Gov't, by your definition.

2. God gave us 3 Governments with specific responsibilities and minimal overlap.

• Family government where the father is the head
• Church government where the Pastor/Elder/Reverend is the head
• Civil Government where the head of state is the head (Mayor, County Commissioner, Governor, President).

In situations where 1 Government has failed/is failing, it is up to the other 2 governments to fill the void as best they can until the missing government is restored.

• If your neighbor's house is on fire and you and your neighbors choose to start a bucket brigade out of the creek until the Fire Dept arrives then you (the family government) are filling in the temporary void of Civil Government.
• A Civil Government-run Orphanage is filling in for the Family Gov't when the parents are missing
• A Church-run Orphanage is filling in for the Family Gov't when the parents are missing
• And if a Church chooses to protect a Christian Medical Clinic when the Civil Government is refusing to do so adequately then you are filling in the void left by Civil Government.

What is NOT Biblical is using the Family or Church government to act contrary to the law OR for the Church or Family Government to compete with Civil Authority in the realm of Civil Government (think Dark Ages Papacy (Church Gov't), or the Mafia (Family Gov't)).

Likewise it's NOT Biblical for the Civil Government to compete in the realm of Family Government (Mandated Covid Vax) or in Church Government (Civil Mandates to close Churches).

So, you're an EMT. Thank you for doing that work. You have no need for a gun.
I like and agree with your 3 forms of government. The only government given a gun is the earthly government of an earthly nation. There is no biblical support for military weaponry in the family or church.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

So, you're an EMT. Thank you for doing that work. You have no need for a gun.
I like and agree with your 3 forms of government. The only government given a gun is the earthly government of an earthly nation. There is no biblical support for military weaponry in the family or church.

So your position is that the Family and Church cannot fill in for the Civil Government when the Civil Government fails in a duty?

How about reverse? Can the Civil Government fill in for Family? I.E Can orphanages exist?

If you're good with Orphanages, but not good with guns in the Family and Church when needed then that's not a consistently applied standard.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. Your extremist nationalist Christianity goes contrary to Jesus and the Apostles.

No such thing as nationalist Christianity. Its just a word used to hate people with whom folks like you disagree with.

 

[AustinC]

No such thing as nationalist Christianity. Its just a word used to hate people with whom folks like you disagree with.

You are completely wrong. There are many self proclaimed Christians who are fascist nationalists. Just look at an organization like the KKK for instance, which claims Christianity. Look at all the "God and Country" folk who think the US is God's chosen nation of people. They interpret the Bible through US history and experience. The eisegesis done to the Bible is shocking.

 

[canadyjd]

So, you're an EMT. Thank you for doing that work. You have no need for a gun…..

I am in general agreement with your stance about non-violence from Christians.

However, it seems dismissive, imo, of an individual’s own convictions to declare you know whether they need a gun or not. You cannot possibly know the circumstances they face in making that decision.

Just saying

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

You are completely wrong. There are many self proclaimed Christians who are fascist nationalists. Just look at an organization like the KKK for instance, which claims Christianity. Look at all the "God and Country" folk who think the US is God's chosen nation of people. They interpret the Bible through US history and experience. The eisegesis done to the Bible is shocking.

No im not