Virgin born

I used to see it as sad, but then I realized that there is very little I can do to persuade people in your camp (with the exception of those who find their way out of it and show up in my office looking for a way to reclaim their faith). As a result, the best I can hope to do is try to build understanding - something I seem to have failed miserably at with this thread. Nevertheless, I'll keep trying (and continue to be mildly amused simply because I learned a long time ago not to take myself or others too seriously).

Joshua

 

Mr. Villines

In your opinion how did mary become with child?

Is Jesus the Son of God?

If yes is he a son of God in a diffrent way than a Born again Christian is the son of God?

Why do you fill the passages in Luke telling us that the birth of Jesus is not of a Virgin?

[ August 20, 2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: John3v36 ]

 

Could it be Satan?
Murph[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You have got to be kidding. You owe Joshua an apology. Now.

 

Why David? We are just being faithful stewards of God's Word and comparing his statements with the inerrant, infallible revelation of God.

 

How did I miss this post on page 1?

BB, I don't question endorsement of conservatives. (Haven't seen you endorse any, though ) But do question your endorsement of suspected trolls & liberals!

Murph is okay in my book. Never been suspicious of any of his posts. No troll there!

We conservatives have to stick together because it sure looks like we're outnumbered on this Board from what I've read lately!

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus!

And He was born of a virgin because the Bible says so. Case Closed. Period. Selah.

 

In Genesis 3:15 we read the earliest reference to the seed of the woman stating that he would destroy the power of Satan "he shall bruise thy head"

Through the old testament we have many types and shadows which remind us of the coming redeemer.

We rejoice that "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," Gal. 4:4 In Phil 2: 6-8 we see the lowly stoop which our saviour took "Who being (present/continuous) in the form of God thought it not (a thing to be grasped at) to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

According to John 1 he is the eternal Word, he always was and always will be. He is co-equal and co-eternal with his Father. He did not begin at Bethleham, but at his birth we see his incarnation, God manifest in the flesh. Truly God and truly man, this is a truth which transcends human thought.

Robert

 

How did I miss this post on page 1?

BB, I don't question endorsement of conservatives.</font>[/QUOTE]He was under suspicion as a troll. I made it very clear that he was not, ironically because he had already blasted me in another thread. Since you have been very suspicious of me, I realized the easiest way was to present him as someone who I had already had a conflict with.

It's the sad truth that some here are waging war against their brothers and sisters in Christ and that sometimes the best endorsement is from someone who has been falsely maligned as an enemy.

Um, you're commenting on a case where I did just that! How did you miss it?

I'm not really that interested in who is a "troll" and who is not. That seems to be your obsession. If someone is presenting the truth, I will support them. If someone is presenting something I disagree with, but is being subjected to personal attacks instead of dealing with the issues, then I will say something about the attacks. I am more concerned about truth than being "politically correct" in the so-called "conservative Christian" world.

I've noticed that people are labeled "liberals" and falsely accused of all sorts of things. Some have even tossed around accusations of some being children of Satan. Truly we can be sure that God will not allow things like that to go unpunished.

No, but I'm happy he is listening to God about staying out of discussions where he will be tempted to say things he shouldn't.

Not hardly... From what I've seen, someone makes an accusation and everyone else piles on.

Yes, very true. But belief in that particular doctrinal truth is not required for salvation. That's the real issue, but most people seem to miss it in the frenzy to get their in their shots at the "liberals". I hope it makes everyone feel holy.

 

But yes it is!

If you don't believe in the virgin birth, then you can't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And if you don't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, (the Only Begotten Son), then you can't be saved. The two are not inseparable.

And NOBODY on here who Denies the Virgin Birth after LO these many reams of pages, has provided ANY Scripture to prove Jesus Christ was not born of a virgin.

If Jesus Christ was not born of a virgin, He couldn't save one soul. Thes virgin birth and salvation are, as previously explained to post-it, inseparable, one of the two pillars of Salvation. The other pillar is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I will say this again: If you deny the Virgin Birth then you are denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And if He is not the Son of God, then nobody is saved.

And I still say, the very idea that a Baptist would deny the virgin birth is a slap in the face to Almighty Righteous & Holy God. Liberal or Conservative has nothing to do with it.

 

SheEagle,

I thought fundamentalists were the ones opposed to adding human wisdom to the gospel. Nowhere in the New Testament is belief in the virgin birth linked to salvation or to the gospel. Paul tells the gospel story several times, and never mentions the virgin birth. Two of the gospels omit it entirety (keeping in mind that the Early Church often did not have access to all four gospels - so each author would have included what they thought was essential).

Many children, incidentally, don't even understand what a virgin is. If a child accepts that they are a sinner, and that Jesus died for their sins, are they saved or must they wait until they understand what a virgin is?

Joshua

 

This is your circular argument. Helen has already addressed this a few pages back.

Still waiting for Scriptures to support your unbelief.

I posted Scriptures a few pages back which post-it chose to ignore (& you too, I guess), regarding the sacrifice for sin atonement, etc.

So, how do you know you're saved if your saviour wasn't the son of God? He couldn't have come from the loins of Joseph and be God's son, now could He?

How do you know you are saved? Who saved you? The son of Joseph or the Son of God?

 

I believe the answer is (assuming they were saved before they knew what it meant) what they do with the concept of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ once they hear and understand it, may be a reflection of the quality of their faith.

Notice I said "may be".

HankD

[ August 21, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Yes it is, Mr. Pastor, sir. John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And that one is from Jesus.

Get real. Something can be true without a person understanding it. If our salvation depended upon our understanding of ANYTHING we would all be lost eternally! The virgin birth and the salvation of man are inexorably linked as stated. By Jesus Himself.

And no, children may not understand the word 'virgin,' but they know Mary was the mother and God was the father! And even if they didn't they are His anyway -- and such is the Kingdom of Heaven.

[ August 21, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Helen, that verse testifies to the uniqueness of Jesus, but does not link accepting the virgin birth (which is nowhere mentioned in John) with the gospel or salvation.

Joshua

 

Josh,

Just come out and say it! Mary, according to you was nothing more then a harlot.

Because what you're saying, she could be nothing more.

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

 

Josh.....How do you explain the following scriptures? These verses may have been posted already as I didn't read all 11 pages!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive , and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child , and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

God Bless..........Alex

[ August 21, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

The Isaiah passage has been dealt with - but presumably not to the satisfatcion of either side. The scholars I prefer say "girl." The scholars fundamentalists prefer say "virgin."

Justified - as I've already stated I BELIEVE IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH!!!!!

There is, however, no biblical justification for saying that such belief is necessary for salvation. I would not exclude someone from fellowship or leadership over the issue.

Joshua

 

"I don't believe Jesus would have had to have been born of a virgin for God to have made Him fully human and fully divine. I certainly don't think accepting the virgin birth is a prerequisite to salvation.

Joshua[/QB][/QUOTE]"

Forgive me if the quoting function isn't working right, I am new here!!
The Bible clearly states that Mary was a virgin prior to the birth of Jesus:
Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Luke 1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

Ones salvation is not based upon recognition of the virginity of Mary, but indeed to question the event when the Bible is clear upon this issue is not a activity which will result in the edification of the body of Christ

 

Rev Villines,
Do you think atheists will be in heaven?

 

Guess I should have read more!! I agree with you that the virgin birth has nothing to do with the process of salvation EXCEPT that the birth was of JESUS! But belief of this as a virgin birth or not.......Hmmmmm, may have something to do with it because to believe in Jesus you have to believe in how He came to be here in the flesh.

God Bless...........Alex

 

But yes it is!

If you don't believe in the virgin birth, then you can't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And if you don't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, (the Only Begotten Son), then you can't be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Why can't I? The emphasis of the gospel writers is that Jesus is the Son of God -- not son of a virgin. The PATERNITY of Jesus is what is most important. I also believe that the clear Biblical teaching that Jesus was born of a virgin is true and has importance, but it is *not* essential to salvation.

Trusting all you know yourself to be to all you know Christ to be is the way people are saved. Repentance and faith are the way to God. It is not about certain Biblical knowledge that we may or may not have. Abraham was saved without knowing about the virgin birth. We can be as well. Paul explicitly writes about the dangers of adding qualifications to the simplicity of the gospel in the letter to the Galatians.

Neither Joshua or I are denying the virgin birth. To believe otherwise is deliberateself-delusion or blatant baseless accusations. Just because we don't add it to an extrabiblical list of what people need to affirm before they are saved does not mean we don't believe it.

To suggest that I do is a lie.

And to suggest that I do is a lie -- it doesn't matter whether you claim to be liberal or conservative.