CarpentersApprentice
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Since Peter Waldo is often cited as an early Baptist, Protestant, or Evangelical - I thought it might be useful to post his profession of faith for reference.
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Waldes of Lyons' Profession of Faith
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A Profession of Faith by Waldes of Lyons, written about 1180 (from Heresies of the High Middle Ages, translated by Walter Wakefield and Austin Evans)
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Most Blessed Mary, ever virgin.
Let it be known to all the faithful that I, Waldes, and all my brethren, with the Holy Gospels placed before us, believe in heart, perceive through faith, confess in speech, and in unequivocal words affirm that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, one God, the whole Trinity of Godhead coessential, consubstantial, coeternal, and co-omnipotent; and that each Person of the Trinity is fully God, all three persons one God, as is contained in the creeds, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed.
We believe in heart and confess in words that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the one God to whom we testify is creator, maker, governor, and, in due time and place, disposer of all things visible and invisible, all things of the heavens, in the air, and in the waters, and upon the earth.
We believe that the author of the New and Old Testaments, that is, of the Law of Moses and of the prophets and of the apostles, is one and the same God who, existing in the Trinity as we have said, created all things; John the Baptist, holy and righteous, was sent by Him and was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb.
We believe in heart and confess in words that the incarnation of divinity came to pass, not in the Father or in the Holy Spirit, but only in the Son, so that He who in divinity was the Son of God the Father, true God from the Father, was true man from His mother, having true flesh from the womb of His mother and a rational human soul, of both natures at one and the same time; that is, He was both God and man, one Person, one Son, one Christ, one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, ruler and author of all, born of the Virgin Mary by true birth of the flesh.
We believe in heart and confess in words that He ate, drank, slept, and rested when weary from travel; He suffered with true passion of His flesh, died in a true death of his body, rose again with true resurrection of His flesh and true restoration of His soul; in that flesh He afterward ate and drank, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and in it shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
We believe in one Church, Catholic, holy, apostolic, and immaculate, outside of which no one can be saved. We do not in any way reject the sacraments which are celebrated in it with the aid of the inestimable and invisible power of the Holy Spirit, even though they be ministered by a sinful priest, as long as the Church accepts him; nor do we disparage the ecclesiastical offices or the blessings celebrated by such a one, but with devout mind we embrace them as if performed by the most righteous.
(continued...)
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Most Blessed Mary, ever virgin.
Let it be known to all the faithful that I, Waldes, and all my brethren, with the Holy Gospels placed before us, believe in heart, perceive through faith, confess in speech, and in unequivocal words affirm that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, one God, the whole Trinity of Godhead coessential, consubstantial, coeternal, and co-omnipotent; and that each Person of the Trinity is fully God, all three persons one God, as is contained in the creeds, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed.
We believe in heart and confess in words that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the one God to whom we testify is creator, maker, governor, and, in due time and place, disposer of all things visible and invisible, all things of the heavens, in the air, and in the waters, and upon the earth.
We believe that the author of the New and Old Testaments, that is, of the Law of Moses and of the prophets and of the apostles, is one and the same God who, existing in the Trinity as we have said, created all things; John the Baptist, holy and righteous, was sent by Him and was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb.
We believe in heart and confess in words that the incarnation of divinity came to pass, not in the Father or in the Holy Spirit, but only in the Son, so that He who in divinity was the Son of God the Father, true God from the Father, was true man from His mother, having true flesh from the womb of His mother and a rational human soul, of both natures at one and the same time; that is, He was both God and man, one Person, one Son, one Christ, one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, ruler and author of all, born of the Virgin Mary by true birth of the flesh.
We believe in heart and confess in words that He ate, drank, slept, and rested when weary from travel; He suffered with true passion of His flesh, died in a true death of his body, rose again with true resurrection of His flesh and true restoration of His soul; in that flesh He afterward ate and drank, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and in it shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
We believe in one Church, Catholic, holy, apostolic, and immaculate, outside of which no one can be saved. We do not in any way reject the sacraments which are celebrated in it with the aid of the inestimable and invisible power of the Holy Spirit, even though they be ministered by a sinful priest, as long as the Church accepts him; nor do we disparage the ecclesiastical offices or the blessings celebrated by such a one, but with devout mind we embrace them as if performed by the most righteous.
(continued...)
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We approve, therefore, of the baptism of infants for we confess and believe that they are saved if they shall die after baptism before they commit sin. We believe, indeed, that in baptism all sins are remitted as well that original inherited sin as those which are committed voluntarily.
We hold that confirmation performed by a bishop, that is, by the imposition of hand, is holy and worthy of reverent acceptance.
We firmly believe and absolutely accept that the Eucharist, that is, the bread and wine after consecration, is the body and blood of Jesus Christ and in this nothing more is accomplished by a good priest, nothing less by an evil one.
We acknowledge that God grants forgiveness to sinners truly penitent in heart, who confess in words and do works of satisfaction in accordance with the Scriptures, and most willingly will we consort with them.
We venerate the anointing of the sick with consecrated oil.
We do not deny that carnal marriage may be contracted, as the Apostle says; we utterly forbid that those united in lawful fashion may separate; also, we do not condemn a second marriage.
We humbly praise and faithfully venerate the ecclesiastical orders, the is, the episcopate and the priesthood and the others of higher and lower degree, and all that is in good order appointed to be read and sung in the Church.
We believe that the devil was made evil not by nature but by his will.
We put no reproach at all upon the eating of meat.
We believe in heart and confess in words the resurrection of the flesh which we bear and no other.
We firmly believe and affirm that judgment is still to come and that each person will receive either reward or punishment for those things committed in the flesh.
We do not doubt that alms, and the Mass, and other good works can be of benefit to the faithful who have died.
And since, according to James the Apostle, “faith without works is dead,” we have renounced the world; whatever we had we have given to the poor, as the Lord advised, and we have resolved to be poor in such fashion that we shall take no thought for the morrow, nor shall we accept gold or silver, or anything of that sort from anyone beyond food and clothing sufficient for the day. Our resolve is to follow the precepts of the Gospel as commands.
We wholeheartedly confess and believe that persons remaining in the world, owning their own goods, giving alms and doing other good works out of their own, and observing the commandments of the Lord, may be saved.
Wherefore, we earnestly assure Your Grace that if any shall chance to come to your vicinity, declaring that they come from us but having not this faith, you may know with certainty that they come not from us.
(End.)
We hold that confirmation performed by a bishop, that is, by the imposition of hand, is holy and worthy of reverent acceptance.
We firmly believe and absolutely accept that the Eucharist, that is, the bread and wine after consecration, is the body and blood of Jesus Christ and in this nothing more is accomplished by a good priest, nothing less by an evil one.
We acknowledge that God grants forgiveness to sinners truly penitent in heart, who confess in words and do works of satisfaction in accordance with the Scriptures, and most willingly will we consort with them.
We venerate the anointing of the sick with consecrated oil.
We do not deny that carnal marriage may be contracted, as the Apostle says; we utterly forbid that those united in lawful fashion may separate; also, we do not condemn a second marriage.
We humbly praise and faithfully venerate the ecclesiastical orders, the is, the episcopate and the priesthood and the others of higher and lower degree, and all that is in good order appointed to be read and sung in the Church.
We believe that the devil was made evil not by nature but by his will.
We put no reproach at all upon the eating of meat.
We believe in heart and confess in words the resurrection of the flesh which we bear and no other.
We firmly believe and affirm that judgment is still to come and that each person will receive either reward or punishment for those things committed in the flesh.
We do not doubt that alms, and the Mass, and other good works can be of benefit to the faithful who have died.
And since, according to James the Apostle, “faith without works is dead,” we have renounced the world; whatever we had we have given to the poor, as the Lord advised, and we have resolved to be poor in such fashion that we shall take no thought for the morrow, nor shall we accept gold or silver, or anything of that sort from anyone beyond food and clothing sufficient for the day. Our resolve is to follow the precepts of the Gospel as commands.
We wholeheartedly confess and believe that persons remaining in the world, owning their own goods, giving alms and doing other good works out of their own, and observing the commandments of the Lord, may be saved.
Wherefore, we earnestly assure Your Grace that if any shall chance to come to your vicinity, declaring that they come from us but having not this faith, you may know with certainty that they come not from us.
(End.)
Thank you very much.
This shows, as I've said before that the Waldensians were Catholics who opposed some of Rome's continued additions at the time, just like the East. When I saw stuff like this, even admitted in the SDA published book "the Waldensians", I stopped thinking of them as predecessors to some modern sect.
Eliyahu says that all the information about these groups has been distorted by "the persecutors", but this one is coming right from their own leader, and shows a lot of their agreement with both the RCC, as well as the universal "orthodox" theology; rather than making them seem like far out heretics, as was claimed for the Albigenses, and others.
This shows, as I've said before that the Waldensians were Catholics who opposed some of Rome's continued additions at the time, just like the East. When I saw stuff like this, even admitted in the SDA published book "the Waldensians", I stopped thinking of them as predecessors to some modern sect.
Eliyahu says that all the information about these groups has been distorted by "the persecutors", but this one is coming right from their own leader, and shows a lot of their agreement with both the RCC, as well as the universal "orthodox" theology; rather than making them seem like far out heretics, as was claimed for the Albigenses, and others.
Your posts definitely need more verification.
Your posts seem to report that Waldes was almost perfect Roman Catholic.
Then, why did the Roman Catholic banned him and persecuted his movement?
The Waldes or Waldo and his companions appeal their expulsion from the diocese of Lyons, France by the bishop for violating a ban on Preaching. His preaching at this time was directed against the worldliness of the Catholic Clergy. Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the Third Lateran Council, under Pope Alexander III had already been scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184)
Excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their Preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who followed Christ and His teaching.
An old article tells how as the year [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](1177) "disciples of Peter Waldo came from Lyons, France to Germany and began to preach in Frankfurt and in Nuremberg, but because of the Council in Nuremberg was warned that they should Seize and burn them, they disappeared into Bohemia." [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Your posts seem to report that Waldes was almost perfect Roman Catholic.
Then, why did the Roman Catholic banned him and persecuted his movement?
The Waldes or Waldo and his companions appeal their expulsion from the diocese of Lyons, France by the bishop for violating a ban on Preaching. His preaching at this time was directed against the worldliness of the Catholic Clergy. Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the Third Lateran Council, under Pope Alexander III had already been scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184)
Excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their Preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who followed Christ and His teaching.
An old article tells how as the year [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](1177) "disciples of Peter Waldo came from Lyons, France to Germany and began to preach in Frankfurt and in Nuremberg, but because of the Council in Nuremberg was warned that they should Seize and burn them, they disappeared into Bohemia." [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]http://www.homestead.com/prosites-hobarker/continuationacts.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Did Roman Catholics persecute their faithful believers?[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Your article needs authentication as there are many manufactured antiques these days. These days Chinese manufacture the antiques of Tang dynasty which dates back to 7-9 century AD, and it is not only the Chinese but also the rest of the world people too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]We have to be very careful about any history in support of the heresies, and the Roman Religion is one of the beggest heresy.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Read the articles here:[/FONT]
When you buy a house, you have to inspect it a lot. When you buy an eternal house, you have to be extremely careful. The Great Inspection tool is the Bible. The history retained by the heretics are not reliable.
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
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They persecuted them because they dared to go against papal authority, in lesser issues. Just like the East. The difference was that the East was too big for Rome to persecute, and had their own land and power base, while the Waldensians were a small group in RCC territory.
East and West did mutually excommunicate each other, even though they both still held to all those doctrines.
East and West did mutually excommunicate each other, even though they both still held to all those doctrines.
God the Holy Spirit was not dormant or idle during the Dark Ages.
He worked a lot in Asia thru Nestorians, Paulicians, Followers of Thomas in India, and in Europe Montanists, Cathari, Donatists, Bogomils, Albigenes, Waldensians.
Albigenes were the Believers condemned mostly unjustly. I already explained this on the other thread. This is the report by the Roman Catholic Inquisitor, Reinerius, the former Albigene.
Please note some people identify the Albigenes are the same or duplicated with Waldensians as they believe one can hardly make the clear distinction between 2 groups.
Reinerius, who was a former member of the Albigenses, knew quite well what various sects claimed, as seen in this 1254 A.D. report on them:
He worked a lot in Asia thru Nestorians, Paulicians, Followers of Thomas in India, and in Europe Montanists, Cathari, Donatists, Bogomils, Albigenes, Waldensians.
Albigenes were the Believers condemned mostly unjustly. I already explained this on the other thread. This is the report by the Roman Catholic Inquisitor, Reinerius, the former Albigene.
Please note some people identify the Albigenes are the same or duplicated with Waldensians as they believe one can hardly make the clear distinction between 2 groups.
Reinerius, who was a former member of the Albigenses, knew quite well what various sects claimed, as seen in this 1254 A.D. report on them:
First They say that the Romish Church, is not the Church of Jesus Christ, but a church of malignants and that it apostatized under Sylvester, when the poison of temporalities was infused into the h. And they say, that they are the church of Christ, because they observe both in word, and deed, the doctrine of Christ, of the Gospel, and of the Apostles.
Their second error is that all vices and sins are in the church( Roman Church), and that they alone live righteously.
That scarcely anyone in the church, but themselves, preserves the evangelical doctrine.
That they are the true poor in spirit, and suffer persecution for righteousness and faith.
That they are the Church of Jesus Christ.
That the Church of Rome is the Harlot in the Apocalypse, on account of its superfluous decoration which the Eastern Church does not regard.
That they despise all the statutes of the Church, because they are heavy and numerous.
That the Pope is the head of all errors.
That the Prelates are Scribes; and the Monks, Pharisees.
That the Pope and all Bishops, are homicides on account of wars.
That we are not to obey Prelates; but only God.
That no one is greater than another in the church. Matt. 23. "All of you are brethren."
That no one ought to bow the knee before a priest. Rev. ii. where the Angel says tojohn "See thou do it not."
That tithes are not to be given, because first fruits were not given to the church.
That the clergy ought not to have possessions; Dent. xviii. "The Priests and all the tribe of Levi, shall not have part and inheritance with the people of Israel, because they eat the sacrifices, and they shall receive nothing else."
That the clergy, and monks, ought not to have Prebends.( land of church)
That the Bishops and Abbots ought not to have royal rights.
That the land, and the people, are not to be divided into parts.
That it is a bad thing to found and endow churches and monasteries.
That wills are not to be made in favor of Churches( but for the poor)-also, that no one ought to be a tenant of the church-also, they condemn all the clergy for idleness, saying that they ought to work with their hands as the Apostles did-also ( 2 Thess 3:8-12)
, they reprobate titles of dignity such as Pope, Bishops, etc.( they denied Clergy system, Papacy)
-also, that no one is to be forced into belief-also( This is the style of God's working since the Creation), that they make no account of all ecclesiastical offices ( No clergy system according to 1 Pet 2:5-9, Re 1:6)-also, that they care nothing for ecclesiastical privileges-also, they despise the immunity of the Church and of ecclesiastical persons and things-also, they condemn Councils, Synods, and Assemblies( No human organization)-also, they say that all parochial rights are invention-also, they say that monastic rules are the traditions of the Pharisees. ( They condemned the human tradition)
Secondly, they condemn all the Sacraments of the Church; in the first place, as to baptism, they say that the Catechism is nothing - also, that the ablution which is given to infants profits nothing....( They must have condemned the Baptismal Regeneration and Infant Baptism)
Also, they condemn the sacrament of Marriage, saying that married persons sin mortally if they come together without the hope of offspring-also, they disregard compaternity-also, they despise the degrees of affinity, carnal and spiritual, and the impediments of Orders, and of public decency, and of ecclesiastical prohibitions-also, they say that a woman after child-bearing does not require benediction, or introduction-
( They denied any rituals regarding marriage and child bearing. I am not sure the inquisitor understood fully their teachings in this)
also, they say that the church has erred in prohibiting the marriage of the Clergy, while even those of the East mary - also, they say that the continent do not sin in kisses and embraces. ( they denied the Obligatory Celibacy)
The sacrament of Unction, they reprobate, because it is only given to the rich; ( they must have denied the Extreme Unction which is absolute heresy)
and because several priests are required for it-also, they say that the sacrament of Orders is nothing-also, they say that every good layman is a priest (They denied various rituals and believed all Truly Born again believers are the Priests), as the Apostles were laymen-also, that the prayer of an evil priest does not profit-also, ( They knew that many fake Christians became the Holy Catholic Priests as well)
they deride the clerical tonsure-also, that Latin prayer does not profit the vulgar-also, ( Pagan clergy system use the un-understandable language for the liturgy and for sacrifice such as Mass, but the True Christianity use the common language understandable to any lay people)
they make it a matter of ridicule that illegitimate persons and wicked sinners are raised to eminence in the church-also, they say that every layman, and even woman ought to preach, ( according to 2 Tim 4:1-) 1. Cor. xiv. "I would that ye spake in tongues, that the church might receive edification"-also, whatever is preached which cannot be proved by the text of Scripture they consider as fabulous.... ( SOLA SCRIPTURA !!!)
... also, they say that the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles is sufficient for salvation without the statutes of the church ( Amen !!! Amen !!!)-that ( Correct!) and that there is more made of the transgression of a human tradition than of a divine law. Matt. xv. "Why do ye transgress the commands of God by reason of your traditions?" Also, they reject the mystical sense in the holy Scriptures, principally as it regards the sayings and doings delivered in the Church by tradition; as that the cock upon the steeple signifies a doctor. (3) ( They rejected the HUman Tradition !)
The comments in Brackets are my own.
How much would they have read the Bible in order that they may be able to fight the heresies of Rome like that?
How much would they have tried to stick to the teachings of Bible to comment like that depite all the persecutions?
Do you have such courage in faith as to answer like theirs?
Their second error is that all vices and sins are in the church( Roman Church), and that they alone live righteously.
That scarcely anyone in the church, but themselves, preserves the evangelical doctrine.
That they are the true poor in spirit, and suffer persecution for righteousness and faith.
That they are the Church of Jesus Christ.
That the Church of Rome is the Harlot in the Apocalypse, on account of its superfluous decoration which the Eastern Church does not regard.
That they despise all the statutes of the Church, because they are heavy and numerous.
That the Pope is the head of all errors.
That the Prelates are Scribes; and the Monks, Pharisees.
That the Pope and all Bishops, are homicides on account of wars.
That we are not to obey Prelates; but only God.
That no one is greater than another in the church. Matt. 23. "All of you are brethren."
That no one ought to bow the knee before a priest. Rev. ii. where the Angel says tojohn "See thou do it not."
That tithes are not to be given, because first fruits were not given to the church.
That the clergy ought not to have possessions; Dent. xviii. "The Priests and all the tribe of Levi, shall not have part and inheritance with the people of Israel, because they eat the sacrifices, and they shall receive nothing else."
That the clergy, and monks, ought not to have Prebends.( land of church)
That the Bishops and Abbots ought not to have royal rights.
That the land, and the people, are not to be divided into parts.
That it is a bad thing to found and endow churches and monasteries.
That wills are not to be made in favor of Churches( but for the poor)-also, that no one ought to be a tenant of the church-also, they condemn all the clergy for idleness, saying that they ought to work with their hands as the Apostles did-also ( 2 Thess 3:8-12)
, they reprobate titles of dignity such as Pope, Bishops, etc.( they denied Clergy system, Papacy)
-also, that no one is to be forced into belief-also( This is the style of God's working since the Creation), that they make no account of all ecclesiastical offices ( No clergy system according to 1 Pet 2:5-9, Re 1:6)-also, that they care nothing for ecclesiastical privileges-also, they despise the immunity of the Church and of ecclesiastical persons and things-also, they condemn Councils, Synods, and Assemblies( No human organization)-also, they say that all parochial rights are invention-also, they say that monastic rules are the traditions of the Pharisees. ( They condemned the human tradition)
Secondly, they condemn all the Sacraments of the Church; in the first place, as to baptism, they say that the Catechism is nothing - also, that the ablution which is given to infants profits nothing....( They must have condemned the Baptismal Regeneration and Infant Baptism)
Also, they condemn the sacrament of Marriage, saying that married persons sin mortally if they come together without the hope of offspring-also, they disregard compaternity-also, they despise the degrees of affinity, carnal and spiritual, and the impediments of Orders, and of public decency, and of ecclesiastical prohibitions-also, they say that a woman after child-bearing does not require benediction, or introduction-
( They denied any rituals regarding marriage and child bearing. I am not sure the inquisitor understood fully their teachings in this)
also, they say that the church has erred in prohibiting the marriage of the Clergy, while even those of the East mary - also, they say that the continent do not sin in kisses and embraces. ( they denied the Obligatory Celibacy)
The sacrament of Unction, they reprobate, because it is only given to the rich; ( they must have denied the Extreme Unction which is absolute heresy)
and because several priests are required for it-also, they say that the sacrament of Orders is nothing-also, they say that every good layman is a priest (They denied various rituals and believed all Truly Born again believers are the Priests), as the Apostles were laymen-also, that the prayer of an evil priest does not profit-also, ( They knew that many fake Christians became the Holy Catholic Priests as well)
they deride the clerical tonsure-also, that Latin prayer does not profit the vulgar-also, ( Pagan clergy system use the un-understandable language for the liturgy and for sacrifice such as Mass, but the True Christianity use the common language understandable to any lay people)
they make it a matter of ridicule that illegitimate persons and wicked sinners are raised to eminence in the church-also, they say that every layman, and even woman ought to preach, ( according to 2 Tim 4:1-) 1. Cor. xiv. "I would that ye spake in tongues, that the church might receive edification"-also, whatever is preached which cannot be proved by the text of Scripture they consider as fabulous.... ( SOLA SCRIPTURA !!!)
... also, they say that the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles is sufficient for salvation without the statutes of the church ( Amen !!! Amen !!!)-that ( Correct!) and that there is more made of the transgression of a human tradition than of a divine law. Matt. xv. "Why do ye transgress the commands of God by reason of your traditions?" Also, they reject the mystical sense in the holy Scriptures, principally as it regards the sayings and doings delivered in the Church by tradition; as that the cock upon the steeple signifies a doctor. (3) ( They rejected the HUman Tradition !)
The comments in Brackets are my own.
How much would they have read the Bible in order that they may be able to fight the heresies of Rome like that?
How much would they have tried to stick to the teachings of Bible to comment like that depite all the persecutions?
Do you have such courage in faith as to answer like theirs?
Eric B said:
You must be able to notice the progress and evolution of their faith from the begining until they grow enough. For example Peter Waldo must have started from a Businessman then later on he realized Rome is not the party for him to appeal to. Think about Cinichy from Quebec who lived the era of Abraham Lincoln. He tried to resolve many things within the RCC after he was born again. After many years, he gave up Rome.
Peter Waldo would have thought Rome could accept his reasonable petition, which was wrong ! There must have been the fundamental Vaudois ( Albigenes) at that time who dissuade him from appealing to Pope. Eventually peter must have realized that Rome is not the party to pay his hope for.
Even in my case, I never knew this much problem is in RCC when I was a faithful believer 12 years ago.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Eliyahu said:
As I indicated above the full text of Waldo's profession of faith can be found in the book Heresies of the High Middle Ages.
The translation in HHMA is quoted by Prescot Stephens in his book The Waldensian Story (1998).
Stephens book is endorsed by Giorgio Bouchard who was the moderator of the Waldensian Church from 1979 to 1986.
CA
CarpentersApprentice said:
It doesn't guarantee the authenticity of the Confession itself. The Waldensians in the modern Italy differs quite a lot from the Medieval Waldensians, rather closer to Methodists etc.
Could you see the existance of such group of which faith is reported by the Inquisitor Reinerius? At least such group of people existed in the medieval era.
Also, there were many Waldo's in medieval era such as the one in 9th century AD, and another confession around 1120 AD as well.
Here is another confession by the Waldensians
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/WaldensianConfession1120.htm
I don't trust even this reports the Faith of Waldensians correctly.
I hope you have heard that the most frequent visitor to the Wikipedia is the Vatican, which means that they work very hard to manufacture the history, healing their wounds. Don't be cheated by them.
Listen to the voice of God, saying " Come out of her, my people " ( Re 18:4)
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/WaldensianConfession1120.htm
I don't trust even this reports the Faith of Waldensians correctly.
I hope you have heard that the most frequent visitor to the Wikipedia is the Vatican, which means that they work very hard to manufacture the history, healing their wounds. Don't be cheated by them.
Listen to the voice of God, saying " Come out of her, my people " ( Re 18:4)
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CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Eliyahu said:
Eliyahu,
Please cite the book that contains the full text, translated into English, of Waldo's profession of faith that you will accept as authentic.
Thank you.
CA
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Eliyahu said:
This citation needs more documentation.
RE The document is titled the "Waldensian Confessions of Faith circa 1120."
This hardly seems possible.
To begin with, it was in the 1170's - not the 1120's - when when Waldo had his religious experience, gave away most of his possessions to the poor, and began living a life of poverty himself. It doesn't seem likely that he would have written this confession 50 years before that event.
Also, it was not until the latter part of the 1170's that people began following him in any sort of organized fashion. The title "Waldensian" indicates that this is a group of or related to Waldo. Again, it doesn't seem likely that a group would have formed around Waldo 50 years before the event that shaped Waldo and the subsequent Waldensian movement.
Eliyahu said:
I agree.
CA
CarpentersApprentice said:
1. The articles that you brought may be correct partly, but it seems more Catholic than what the Catholic reports about Waldes.
There are many Catholic reports and articles about them, which indicates somehow the reason why the Catholic had to excommunicate Waldo and his followers. But in your article, one can hardly find the reason for RCC to excommunicate them because they were too much faithful Catholics. In such case, one can hardly explain why the Catholics persecuted another Catholics, but itself just claims that Roman Catholics were so much crazy and ridiculous.
2. We can imagine easily that Waldo was converted sometime around 1170 and thought he could do well within RCC and pursued the solution inside RCC and believed most of the RCC doctrines until he pursued the solution and admission from Rome 1179-1180, then he and his fellows were rejected by 1182, then he must have changed quite a lot, and he realized that this world is not the place for him to appeal to, and realized that only Jesus Christ would judge correctly and justly, and his fellow believers changed a lot, thereafter the Reinerius, the Inquisitor reported such report around 1254, which was several decades later. So, what we need is the confession of Waldo and his followers after 1182, may be some time like 1200-1210 before he died 1218 AD. I guess such confession would be far from Catholic faith.
3. There are so many articles and reports that tell us that there were dissdent group of Christians outside RCC before 1517 all the time. Even Catholic councils all the time convened to cope with such True Christian movement. In the Bible, Jews persecuted Christians after the incident of Stephen ( ac 8:1-) but the Gospel spread all over the Emphire, Ephesian Council caused Nestorius excommunicated, but Nestorius follwers moved to Central Asia, Assyria, Iran, China, MOngolia, Korea, Japan, and we find a lot of historical remains and writings about them. On the day of Great JUdgment we may realize, millions of true believers came out of such area. I read an article that the Emperor Taijoong of Tang Dynasty of China was a born again Christian thru Nestorians and God blessed his kingdom. Throughout the history of China, his era is understood as the mostly prosperous period.
As the report by Reinerius said, Waldensians must be traced back to at least Pope Sylvester period which was around 350-385 AD, I personally believe that Waldo was not the origin of the name. Wald in German means Forest, and Schwarz-Wald means Black Forest, and Vaudois is a name of a province in Switzedrland, and Albi was the town near Valence, the center of Albigenes, and some say the Valdeshi was the Italian name for Waldensians. in French Vallee is the word for the Valley, but Vaudois was originated from Valley people. I personally travelled to Valence on business which was the center for Albigenes, and Provence area, then Swiss, and I heard that the Waldensians lived up to Tyroll area in Bavaria which are high mountain and have very much dense, dark forest. I heard many people saying Waldensian meant the people living in the forests. Walden is the genitive form of Wald or plural form. If you go to Germany, you can experience how dense and dark the forests are. You enter the forest by 10 meter, you can get lost. You can imagine many Christian believers who refused the Roman Catholicism lived in the deep forest, pasturing the flocks, translating the Bible, and teaching the Bible to the family members, communicating with the other believers from the West Alps thru East Alps, to the Bavaria and Bohemia, to the Northern Italy, Lombardia, and to the Southern France, Valenc, Albi region, then they extended the fellowship to the Bulgaria and Bosnia, and Bulgarians had the communication with Paulicians in Armenia and Pontus. They may have not been many as we have only a few percentage of Believers among the people. In such case, if one writes a history, the True believers may be almost negligible. To the eyes of God, they were precious and they were preserved by God. Many Catholics in medieval era can be forgotten but the true believers cannot be.
History is much more difficult to prove, as the supporting evidences are hard to collect, but before we approach the historical differences, we must examine thoroughly what are the differences between the persecutors and the persecuted based on the Bible Truth.
Does Bible teach that the Idol worshippers are faithful and honest to record their history and what they did correctly? Did Jesus say that the bad trees record the good reports? RCC start to hide the history itself as if there had been no believers outside the RCC. God knows and has recorded the true history of his people and of his enemies.
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CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Eliyahu,
Before moving on in this thread, let's agree on what version of Waldo's profession is authentic.
The source I cited is accepted by the present day Waldensians themselves. I accept this source as authentic.
The source you cited isn't even accepted by you. ("I don't trust even this reports the Faith of Waldensians correctly.")
Please cite the book or web site that contains the full text, translated into English, of Waldo's profession of faith that you will accept as authentic.
If you do reference a web site please let me know the original printed source of the document that the web site used. (Since, as we both know, anyone can type anything on a web site and make it look official.)
Thank you.
CA
(FYI. My citation is found on page 204 in Heresies of the High Middle Ages, Selected Sources Translated and Annotated by Walter Wakefield and Austin Evans (Columbia University Press, New York, 1991)
Before moving on in this thread, let's agree on what version of Waldo's profession is authentic.
The source I cited is accepted by the present day Waldensians themselves. I accept this source as authentic.
The source you cited isn't even accepted by you. ("I don't trust even this reports the Faith of Waldensians correctly.")
Please cite the book or web site that contains the full text, translated into English, of Waldo's profession of faith that you will accept as authentic.
If you do reference a web site please let me know the original printed source of the document that the web site used. (Since, as we both know, anyone can type anything on a web site and make it look official.)
Thank you.
CA
(FYI. My citation is found on page 204 in Heresies of the High Middle Ages, Selected Sources Translated and Annotated by Walter Wakefield and Austin Evans (Columbia University Press, New York, 1991)
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu said:
now that's a good website :thumbs:
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Here ya go...here's another historical source:
http://www.doctrine.org/history/HPv1b1.htm#CHAPTER 6
"There is a singular concurrence of evidence in favor of their high antiquity. Their traditions invariably point to an unbroken descent from the earliest times, as regards their religious belief. The Nobla Leycon, which dates from the year 1100, [3] goes to prove that the Waldenses of Piedmont did not owe their rise to Peter Waldo of Lyons, who did not appear till the latter half of that century (1160)"
This is J.A. Wylie's work on the history of protestantism. He quotes Peter Felix in that history which I possess a copy.
http://www.doctrine.org/history/HPv1b1.htm#CHAPTER 6
"There is a singular concurrence of evidence in favor of their high antiquity. Their traditions invariably point to an unbroken descent from the earliest times, as regards their religious belief. The Nobla Leycon, which dates from the year 1100, [3] goes to prove that the Waldenses of Piedmont did not owe their rise to Peter Waldo of Lyons, who did not appear till the latter half of that century (1160)"
This is J.A. Wylie's work on the history of protestantism. He quotes Peter Felix in that history which I possess a copy.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
ReformedBaptist said:
What primary sources is he referring to here?
RE Note [3] "Recent German criticism refers the Nobla Leycon to a more recent date, but still one anterior to the Reformation." What does this note mean? Since Waldo lived ca. 1170 and the Reformation was in the 1500's. Note 3 seems to contradict the very sentence it is in the middle of.
CA
Jarthur001
Active Member
CarpentersApprentice said:
The COF is fake. Here is something I posted just yesterday.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1103701&postcount=20
There is a ton more if you need it.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
ReformedBaptist said:
Present day Waldensian scholarship dates "The Noble Lesson" from the 14th or 15 century.
Reference You Are My Witnesses: The Waldensians across 800 years by Giorgio Tourn (1989) page 52ff and The Waldensian Story: A study in faith, intolerance and survival by Prescot Stephens (1998) page 84ff.
CA