Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

[Alofa Atu]

Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; and that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that ho alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Saviour himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to havo life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) jusl the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father, why should he represent himself as actually dependent upon the Father for life ? What propriety in representing the Father as conferring upon him a gift which he had possessed from all eternity ? If it be said that his human nature derived its life from the Father, I would answer, It does not thus read; 01 even if it did, 1 would still urge the impropriety of the human nature of the Son of God representing itself as being absolutely dependent upon the Father for the gift of life

This was written by J. M. Stephenson (in R & H, many of which things were far from truth, but was simply a paper publishing many ideas at the time; Baptist, Methodist, Christian Connexion, etc), who denied the Eternality of the Son of God:

"... To say that the Son is as old as his Father, is a palpable contradiction of terms. ..." - ibid

Stephenson, taught that the Son was brought into existence at some point in eternity past. An idea totally Rejected by the Whites, and the Advent (1854) or later Seventh-day Adventist movement (1863) as on whole. Individuals did continue in their belief, and many no longer walked with the Seventh-day Adventist movement, such as Stephenson:

"... Within a year, or so, from this article (R&H, Aug 22, 1854), Stephenson had left Adventism.

Stephenson, according to Bull and Lockhart, Nickels, joined the Age to Come party before 1858, probably in 1855. ..." - J. M. Stephenson – Seventh-day Adventist Doctrines

And though you knew all this, you still claim it is central to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, when it is nothing of the sort. It is the vain and carnal imagination at work, simply to malign that which you refuse to accept, even though you have been shown over the years the errors of Roman Catholicism.

The light you refuse when shone in the darkness, will only increase the blindness, as when a light is turned on in the darkness, and then covered, the eyes will have a harder time seeing, and the greater the light shunned, the greater the darkness will be, but it is a blindness chosen by oneself, as it is written:

Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Act_28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Scripture is crystal clear

It sure is -

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

 

[Alofa Atu]

it doesn't exist in Baptist Theology

Actually it does, but you also refused those quotations a long time ago.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Jesus was ETERNALLY The Christ - Christ is Eternal God

Already agreed from scripture, and even White states the same on numerous occasions, The Desire of Ages is a good place to start.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Catholic Theology.

'Original sin', 'Immaculate conception' dogma:

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[pythons]

So, Alofa.

Ellen White taught that Christ had the potential to permanently cease existing on account of Jesus' sin nature...
...That unfortunately defaults into her belief that Christ was NOT in natural possession of Deity.
...Ellen was very clear in this understanding.

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Bible commentary.
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty.

That's page 40 of the following URL

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/do...pdf#search=%22 true to his loyalty %22&view=fit

Like Lucifer, Christ [Michael] was an archangel.

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence. His complaints against God's government, at first met with no favor; yet being urged again and again, they were finally accepted by those who had before been loyal and happy subjects of the King of Heaven. There was not the shadow of justification or excuse for disaffection; but envy and jealousy, once cherished, gained a power that paralyzed reason and destroyed honor and loyalty. As the result, Satan and all his sympathizers were cast out of Heaven.


Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

I think these are the salient issues, the other distinctives are rather superficial compared to these.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Alofa, You have been shown over the years that there is zero evidence to the contrary of what the SDA Church has put forth.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

Ellen White
To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.

Ellen White R&H August 13, 1895, paragraph 6
Representing the law of God in its true character arouses the enmity of Satan. Those who love God with all the heart, will love the law of his kingdom. They will not only profess to be guided by its principles, but they will actually live them out, even in a world that is no more favorable to the development of Christian principles than were the inhabitants of the world before the flood, of whom it is written that the thoughts and imaginations of their hearts were evil, and only evil continually. A similar condition of society exists in our world today, and if those who claim to be God's commandment-keeping people do not put in practice the principles of the law which Christ came to our world to vindicate, pronouncing it holy, just, and good, they misrepresent the character and mission of their professed Master

There are of course more - but you've seen these before, haven't you.

As for the creature Christ teaching you've seen that as well.

Charles S Longacre waxing eloquent on the teachings of Ellen White.
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. The Deity of Christ’, paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

Why / Where Longacre got the idea

Ellen White, GCB Dec 1, 1895
Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked EVEN his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

"Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” (Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

And where Ellen got the idea from.

Review and Herald November 14, 1854

Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; and that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that ho alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Saviour himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to havo life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) jusl the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father, why should he represent himself as actually dependent upon the Father for life ? What propriety in representing the Father as conferring upon him a gift which he had possessed from all eternity ? If it be said that his human nature derived its life from the Father, I would answer, It does not thus read; 01 even if it did, 1 would still urge the impropriety of the human nature of the Son of God representing itself as being absolutely dependent upon the Father for the gift of life

Scripture is crystal clear - Jesus was ETERNALLY The Christ - Christ is Eternal God and about the clearest thing in the whole of the Bible is God never & I mean ever FAILS. This possibility may have been built into SDA theology but it doesn't exist in Baptist Theology OR Catholic Theology.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Echo ... ooo .. oo ...o...

In a real court of law with a just Judge they say, "Asked and answered'. Objection sustained. Except for this forum ...

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Bible commentary.
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty.

I agree with the statement since that is what scripture teaches, as already cited, for that was what the plan of redemption entails, that God became man, taking upon Himself fallen sinful flesh so that He could condemn sin in the flesh He bore (Roman Catholicism rejects this part):

Here is the more full quotation, for anyone interested:

"... But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions human and divine were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done. {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 11}

There were occasions when Jesus stood forth while in human flesh as the Son of God. Divinity flashed through humanity, and was seen by the scoffing priests and rulers. Was it acknowledged? Some acknowledged that He was the Christ, but the larger portion of those who upon these special occasions were forced to see that He was the Son of God, refused to receive Him. Their blindness corresponded to their determined resistance of conviction. {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 12}

When Christ's indwelling glory flashed forth, it was too intense for His pure and perfect humanity entirely to conceal. The scribes and Pharisees did not speak in acknowledgment of Him, but their enmity and hatred were baffled as His majesty shone forth. The truth, obscured as it was by a vail of humiliation, spoke to every heart with unmistakable evidence. This led to the words of Christ, "Ye know who I am." Men and devils were compelled, by the shining forth of His glory, to confess, "Truly, this is the Son of God." Thus God was revealed: thus Christ was glorified. {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 13}

By raising Christ from the dead, the Father glorified His Son before the Roman guard, before the Satanic host, and before the heavenly universe. A mighty angel, clothed with the panoply of heaven, descended, scattering the darkness from his track, and, breaking the Roman seal, rolled back the stone from the sepulcher as if it had been a pebble, undoing in a moment the work that the enemy had done. The voice of God was heard, calling Christ from His prison-house. The Roman guard saw heavenly angels falling in reverence before Him whom they had crucified, and He proclaimed above the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection and the life." Can we be surprised that the soldiers fell as dead men to the earth? {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 14}

Christ's ascension to heaven, amid a cloud of heavenly angels, glorified Him. His concealed glory shone forth with all the brightness that mortal man could endure and live. He came to our world as a man; He ascended to His heavenly home as God. His human life was full of sorrow and grief, because of His cruel rejection by those He came to save; but men were permitted to see Him strengthened, to behold Him ascending in glory and triumph, surrounded by a convoy of angels. The same holy beings that announced His advent to the world were permitted to attend Him at His ascension, and to demand a triumphal entrance for the royal and glorified Being. "Lift up your heads, O ye gates," they cry as they near the heavenly portals; "and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in." The angels at the gates respond in lofty strain, "Who is this King of glory?" And from thousands and ten thousands of voices the answer comes: "The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in." Again the angels at the gates cry, "Who is this King of glory?" and again the response swells triumphantly upward, "The Lord of hosts, He is the King of glory." {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 15} ..."

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence. His complaints against God's government, at first met with no favor; yet being urged again and again, they were finally accepted by those who had before been loyal and happy subjects of the King of Heaven. There was not the shadow of justification or excuse for disaffection; but envy and jealousy, once cherished, gained a power that paralyzed reason and destroyed honor and loyalty. As the result, Satan and all his sympathizers were cast out of Heaven.

Yes, Lucifer is an 'archangel', even over all the forces of 'hell', which is why he is called 'prince' (ruler over/of, the arche, archon, etc):

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The angels of the “first” estate, the office of archangels, the Koine Greek “arche”:

Jude 1:6 KJB - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.​

Jude 1:6 KJB, speaks of the “angels which left their first estate”. Satan/Lucifer himself was/is an lesser archangel, and rules even now over other [wicked] angels, his “Legion/s” of “devils” [Matthew 25:41; Mark 5:9,15; Luke 8:30; Revelation 12:7,9 KJB], even holding at one point the arch office over many others in Heaven, even as the covering cherub [Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] that stood in the direct presence of God.

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... the prince of the kingdom of Persia ...”

Daniel 10:20 KJB - “... the prince of Persia ...”

Matthew 9:34 KJB - “... devils through the prince of the devils.”

Matthew 12:24 KJB - “... cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.”

Mark 3:22 KJB - “... Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devil.”

John 12:31 KJB - “... the prince of this world ...”

John 14:30 KJB - “... the prince of this world ...”

John 16:11 KJB - “... the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 8:38 KJB - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Ephesians 2:2 KJB - “... the prince of the power of the air ...”

Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 6:12 KJB - “... against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places] ...”

Colossians 1:16 KJB - “... thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ...”

Colossians 2:15 KJB - “... principalities and powers ...”

This related Koine Greek word “archōn” is found translated in the King James Bible as “prince”, “ruler”, and “chief”, in conjunction with angels, even Satan himself, a lesser archangel ruling over myriads of devils [Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7,8,9]:

Matthew 9:34 KJB - But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:24 KJB - But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Mark 3:22 KJB - And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Luke 11:15 KJB - But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

John 12:31 KJB - Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 KJB - Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11 KJB - Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Ephesians 2:2 KJB - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 1], Satan is called the “ἄρχων”, “archon”, and “ἄρχοντος”, “archontos”:

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... the prince of the kingdom of Persia ...”

Daniel 10:13 LXX* - “... ὁ ἄρχων βασιλείας Περσῶν ...”

Daniel 10:20 KJB - “... the prince of Persia ...”

Daniel 10:20 LXX* - “... ἄρχοντος Περσῶν· ...”

Satan, himself, is also the supreme [arch] ruler over the synagogues [gatherings/assemblies] of evil, and those that rule there:

[8] G752:

The Koine Greek: ἀρχισυνάγωγος
The Transliterated Koine Greek: archisunagōgos

This word is variously translated in the King James Bible as [according to the E-Sword King James Concordance]:

Total KJB Occurrences: 20

ruler, 7

Mark 5:35-36 (2),38; Luke 8:49, 13:14; Acts 18:8,17

synagogue, 7

Mark 5:22,36,38; Acts 13:14-15 (2), 18:8,17

chief, 2

Acts 18:8,17

rulers, 2

Mark 5:22; Acts 13:15

synagogue’s, 2

Mark 5:35; Luke 8:49

Luke 13:14 KJB - And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Revelation 2:9 KJB - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 KJB - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Here is the full quotation:

"... We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest angel in heaven. How foolish, then, to suppose that he approached Christ in the wilderness in any such form as is given him in the illustration "The Game of Life." Some here have seen that picture. After the Saviour had fasted forty days and forty nights, "he was afterward an hungered." Then it was that Satan appeared to him. He came as a beautiful angel from heaven, claiming that he had a commission from God to declare the Saviour's fast at an end. "If thou be the Son of God," he said, "command that these stones be made bread." But in Satan's insinuation of distrust, Christ recognized the enemy whose power he had come to the earth to resist. He would not accept the challenge, nor be moved by the temptation. He stood firmly to the affirmative. "Man shall not live by bread alone," he said, "but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." {RH, January 14, 1909 par. 4} ..."

Angel simply means messenger, ambassador, one sent with a message. It has nothing to do with one's nature (Son = Eternal Deity) (Lucifer = created being by the Son at command of the Father, by the Holy Ghost).

Yes, the Son of God is called "Angel of the LORD" in scripture, and thus, next to Christ, Lucifer was next in rank, being the anointed cherub which covered the Throne of God and stood in the very presence of God.

Here are some quotes for you on the Son as "Angel".

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180) was the bishop of Sardis near Smyrna in western Anatolia.

Cureton's Spicilegium Syriacum, contaning remains of Bardeson, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes, by the Rev. William Cureton, M.A. F.R.S. Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen, Rector of St. Margaret's, and Canon of Westminster. London: Francis and John Rivington, St. Paul's Churchyard and Waterloo Place. 1855.
"... [Page 53] From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.

We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patriarch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God- the king forever and ever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses; who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem, (33) who was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherd, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by [Page 53-54] Judas, who was laid hold on by the priests, who was condemned by Pilate, who was transfixed in the flesh, who was hanged upon the tree, who was buried in the earth, who rose from the dead, who appeared to the Apostles, who ascended to heaven, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, who is the rest of those that are departed, the recoverer of those who were lost, the light of those who are in darkness, the deliverer of those who are captives, the guide of those who have gone astray, the refuge of the afflicted, the bridegroom of the Church, the charioteer of the Cherubim, the captain of the angels, God who is of God, the Son who is of the Father, Jesus Christ, the King for ever and ever. Amen. ..." [Pages 53-54] - Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes
Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes
...

 

[Alofa Atu]

...
Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven ...

Roman Catholic Encyclopedia:
...

The Catholic Encyclopedia, an international work of reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Disciple, and History of the Catholic Church, Edited by Charles G. Herbermann, Ph.D., LL.D. Edward A. Pace, Ph. D., D.D. Conde B. Pallen, PhD., LL.D. Thomas J. Shahan, D.D. John J. Wynne, S.J. Assisted by Numerous Collaborators ["... fully 500 ... and 150 editorial assistants" - To the Knights of Columbus and their Friends], Fifteen Volumes and Index, Volume 1 [Aachen - Assize], Special Edition under the Auspices of the Knight of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee; New York, The Encyclopedia Press, Inc., Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1907; Remy Lafort, S.T.D. Censor; Imprimatur [Maltese Cross] John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York; Copyright, 1907 by Robert Appleton Company; Copyright, 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc.

"... [Page 479] We have had occasion to mention the Septuagint version more than once, and it may not be amiss to indicate a few passages where it is our only source of information regarding the angels. The best known passage is Isaiah 9:6, where the Septuagint gives the name of the Messias, as "the Angel of great Counsel". …

... But while we read of "the Angels of God" meeting Jacob (Gen., XXXII, 1) we at other times read of one who is termed "the Angel of God" par excellence, e.g. Gen., XXXI, 11. ... the story in Gen., XIII, develops, the speaker is always "the Lord". Thus in the account of the Angel of the Lord who visited Gideon (Judges, VI), the visitor is alternately spoken of as "the Angel of the Lord" and as "the Lord". Similarly, in Judges, XIII, the Angel of the Lord appears, and both Manue and his wife exclaim: "We shall certainly die because we have seen God." ... in the story of the Exodus it is the Lord who goes before them in the pillar of a cloud (Exod., XIII, 21), and the Septuagint makes no change (cf. also Num., XIV, 14, and Neh., IX, 7-20). ... When we turn to Exod., XXXIII, where God is angry with His people for worshipping the golden calf, it is hard not to feel that it is God Himself who has hitherto been their guide, but who now refuses to accompany them any longer. … [Page 479-480]

... [Page 480] The Massoretic text as well as the Vulgate of Exodus 3 and 19-20 clearly represent the Supreme Being as appearing to Moses in the bush and on Mount Sinai; ... The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zechariah 3:1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (7:13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days". Zacharias says: "And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan stood on His right hand to be His adversary". Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. Against Praxeas 16; Against Marcion 2.27, 3.9, 1.10, 1.21-22). ... The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared. He who appeared was called God and acted as God. It was not unnatural then for Tertullian, as we have already seen, to regard such manifestations in the light of preludes to the Incarnation, and most of the Eastern Fathers followed the same line of thought. It was held as recently as 1851 by Vandenbroeck, "Dissertatio Theologica de Theophaniis sub Veteri Testamento" (Louvain). ...

... St. Augustine (Sermo vii, de Scripturis, P.G. V) when treating of the burning bush (Exodus 3) says: "... . . . Some maintain that he is called both the Lord and the angel of the Lord because he was Christ, indeed the prophet (Isaiah 9:6, Septuagint Version) clearly styles Christ the 'Angel of great Counsel.'"The saint proceeds to show that such a view is tenable though we must be careful not to fall into Arianism in stating it. ...

... As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding ..., we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Church History I.2.7; St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:6). …" [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Section "A", subsection "Angels", part "The term "angel" in the Septuagint"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Angels
The Catholic encyclopedia; an international work of reference on the constitution, doctrine, discipline, and history of the Catholic Church
The Catholic encyclopedia; an international work of reference on the constitution, doctrine, discipline, and history of the Catholic Church

I have all of those citations available upon request.

Are you saying you disagree with Roman Catholicism's own doctrine on the Son being the "Angel of the LORD", "the Angel of great Counsel", "angel" of the bush and pillar, etc?

 

[Alofa Atu]

... I think these are the salient issues, the other distinctives are rather superficial compared to these.

I think you do not know the scriptures:

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Roman Catholic sources:

"... At the same time the high rank which Lucifer is generally supposed to have held in the hierarchy of angels might seem to make this offense more likely in his case, for, as history shows, it is the subject who stands nearest the throne who is most open to temptations of ambition. ...

... The language of the prophets (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28) would seem to show that Lucifer held a very high rank in the heavenly hierarchy. And, accordingly, we find many theologians maintaining that before his fall he was the foremost of all the angels. ..." - Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, "D", "Devil" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devil

"... Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will…” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God’s creations, but he was not content in his position. ..." - How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

Now, simply connect those sayings, as with many others like them, in connection with Roman Catholicism stating that the Son is the "Angel of the LORD", and what only conclusion may be drawn about the position of Lucifer next to that of the Son, as 'angel' or messenger of office (not nature)?

Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims]:

New American Bible for Catholics, footnotes:

The New American Bible - Revised Edition, 2011: Translated from the Original Languages with critical Use of All the Ancient Sources Including the Revised Psalms and the Revised new Testament, 2011, By Oxford University Press, Inc.

The New American Bible: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L.; Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D.; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] Patrick Cardinal O'Boyle, D.D. Archbishop of Washington July 27, 1970; The Revised New Testament: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L. Censor Deputatus; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] James Cardinal Hickey, S.T.D., J.C.D. Archbishop of Washington August 27, 1986

Standard Print:
http://books.google.com/books?id=r1-taawNEEYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Large Print:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ydPhM5n2 dgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Genesis 16:7:
"… [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] * [16:7] The LORD’s angel: a manifestation of God in human form; in v. 13 the messenger is identified with God. See note on Ex 3:2. …" [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/16#01016007-1

Genesis 18:10:
"… [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] * [18:10] One of them: i.e., the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/18#01018010-1

Exodus 3:2:
“... [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] * [3:2] The angel of the LORD: Hebrew mal’ak or “messenger” is regularly translated angelos by the Septuagint, from which the English word “angel” is derived, but the Hebrew term lacks connotations now popularly associated with “angel” (such as wings). Although angels frequently assume human form (cf. Gn 18–19), the term is also used to indicate the visual form under which God occasionally appeared and spoke to people, referred to indifferently in some Old Testament texts either as God’s “angel,” mal’ak, or as God. Cf. Gn 16:7, 13; Ex 14:19, 24–25; Nm 22:22–35; Jgs 6:11–18. ...” [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/ex/3:2#02003002-1

Joshua 5:14:
"... [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] * [5:14] Commander: the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts is either the Lord or an angelic warrior; if the latter, he is a messenger who speaks in the person of the one who sent him. I have come: the solemn language of theophany; cf., e.g., Ps 50:3; 96:13. …" [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/joshua/5#06005014-1

*It is interesting that the Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible, with Challoner's notation says that this “Commander” in Joshua 5:14 is named “Michael”, and in Daniel 10:21, states that the “guardian general” of the Church is “Michael”, and yet also recognizes that “the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts” can indeed be “the Lord”, why then cannot “the Lord” be symbolized by the designation “Michael”, which according to notation of Revelation 12:7 in the NAB means “Who can compare with God?”, for is not Jesus Christ, God, the Son, the Chief Leader of all Angels or Highest Messenger of the Father, yea the Arch-Angel, yea the Apostle [Hebrews 3:1] of the Father Himself?:

Joshua 5:14 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [14] Prince of the host of the Lord: St. Michael, who is called prince of the people of Israel, Dan. 10. 21. ..." - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=6&ch=5&l=14#x

Daniel 10:21 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [21] Michael your prince: The guardian general of the church of God. …" - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=32&ch=10&l=21#x

Revelation 12:7:
"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7–12] Michael, mentioned only here in Revelation, wins a victory over the dragon. A hymn of praise follows. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12#74012007-1


"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7] Michael: the archangel, guardian and champion of Israel; cf. Dn 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9. In Hebrew, the name Michael means “Who can compare with God?”; cf. Rev 13:4. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/rev/12:7#74012007-2

Hebrews 3:1:
"... [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] the apostle, a designation for Jesus used only here in the New Testament (cf. Jn 13:16; 17:3), meaning one sent as God’s final word to us (Heb 1:2) ..." [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/hebrews/3#66003001-1

Judges 6:22:
"… [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] * [6:22] Ancient Israel thought that seeing God face to face meant mortal danger, as Ex 33:20 indicates and as Gideon’s reaction here shows. Compare the reaction of Samson’s parents (13:22–23) when they realize they have been conversing with the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/jgs/6:22#07006022-1

Judges 13:
"... [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] * [13:22] We will certainly die: seeing God face to face was believed to be fatal, as explained in note on 6:22, where Gideon’s reaction is similar to that of Manoah here. ..." [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/judges/13#07013017-1

Malachi 3:1:
"… [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] * [3:1] My messenger…before me: Mt 11:10 applies these words to John the Baptist; Mt 11:14 further identifies John as Elijah (see Mal 3:23). Some take God’s messenger in v. 1a to be a person distinct from “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” in v. 1b ... Some consider “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” to be divine …" [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/malachi/3#47003001-1

 

[pythons]

This was written by J. M. Stephenson (in R & H, many of which things were far from truth, but was simply a paper publishing many ideas at the time; Baptist, Methodist, Christian Connexion, etc), who denied the Eternality of the Son of God:

"... To say that the Son is as old as his Father, is a palpable contradiction of terms. ..." - ibid

Stephenson, taught that the Son was brought into existence at some point in eternity past. An idea totally Rejected by the Whites, and the Advent (1854) or later Seventh-day Adventist movement (1863) as on whole. Individuals did continue in their belief, and many no longer walked with the Seventh-day Adventist movement, such as Stephenson:

"... Within a year, or so, from this article (R&H, Aug 22, 1854), Stephenson had left Adventism.

Stephenson, according to Bull and Lockhart, Nickels, joined the Age to Come party before 1858, probably in 1855. ..." - J. M. Stephenson – Seventh-day Adventist Doctrines

And though you knew all this, you still claim it is central to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, when it is nothing of the sort. It is the vain and carnal imagination at work, simply to malign that which you refuse to accept, even though you have been shown over the years the errors of Roman Catholicism.

The light you refuse when shone in the darkness, will only increase the blindness, as when a light is turned on in the darkness, and then covered, the eyes will have a harder time seeing, and the greater the light shunned, the greater the darkness will be, but it is a blindness chosen by oneself, as it is written:

Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Act_28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

That's a misrepresentation.

Miller was a Baptist who attracted MANY people from MANY different Faith Traditions...
...When Miller disbanded the movement he started - people went back to their Churches.
...Leaving ONLY those folks who didn't have a church to return to.

This group [that was left] was ANTI-Trinitarian and soon started to squabble over doctrines...
...The group fractured into SDA's, Christadelphians, WWCOG, Jehovah's Witnesses.
...ALL THESE GROUPS AT THE TIME WERE ANTI TRINITARIAN.

This is something YOU know all too well.

IF, as an SDA, YOU still hold to Ellen White's teaching that Jesus "COULD HAVE SINNED & LOST HIS SALVATION" in the face of:

Daniel 2,41
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, WHICH shall never be destroyed: AND the kingdom shall not be left to other people, BUT it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath MADE KNOWN to the king what SHALL come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is CERTAIN, AND the interpretation thereof sure.

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should NOT see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed


Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness

And around 100 other equally explicit texts that unequivocally state Ellen White was teaching heresy when she asserted Christ could have sinned and lost his Salvation - you have a "Bible only" problem.

NOW, I do know [ or better said have become aware / educated ] that the SDA Church is a "BIG TENT" in that there isn't a requirement that some theology is forbidden - I know that now. The question is do you believe Jesus could have sinned and lost His Salvation. I can tell you what a Baptist believes as well as a Methodist, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox Christian, Lutheran, etc.

Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day AGREE with SDA's that Jesus could indeed have "sinned & lost His salvation" - what does this tell you?

 

[Alofa Atu]

This group [that was left] was ANTI-Trinitarian

Indeed, as Roman Catholicism's definition of "trinity" is heresy, and unscriptural. I have the citations of Rome upon request.

 

[Alofa Atu]

IF, as an SDA, YOU still hold to Ellen White's teaching that Jesus "COULD HAVE SINNED & LOST HIS SALVATION" in the face of:

Daniel 2,41 ...

Luke 2,25 ...

Isaiah 35,4 ...

Prophecy doesn't negate the choice leading to its fulfillment. It's a confusion of predestination and free will. The prophecy only shows the outcome of the choices (real, between good an evil) made.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The question is do you believe Jesus could have sinned

Yes. Already established scripturally. That doesn't negate what prophecy said He would choose (good over evil). He chose not to sin, fulfilling prophecy, not that He never had such a choice. Prophecy is God showing the outcome of the choices made unto their completion.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day AGREE with SDA's that Jesus could indeed have "sinned & lost His salvation" - what does this tell you?

There are other more mainstream groups you didn't cite (serpent much?), which teach the same. It is reformation theology, in short, and those groups carry some of that theology, especially the WTS/JW, since they came directly from the bible students, from the advent movement, from the Millerite movement, etc. Of course it is all twisted now, after Russell.

 

[robycop3]

Wow, that is just historically - all wrong, and not even a little right.

William Miller (February 15, 1782 - December 20, 1849)

Seventh-day Adventists officially formed as a body in 1863.

Have you even read Miller's 'Apology'?

Yes, it IS right. You've proven before you don't know history too well, & this is more of it.

EGW had been one of Miller's followers. After the "great disappointment" of 1844, she concluded his prophecy of the EVENT, not the timing, was incorrect. She then started her "investigative judgment " garbage, saying Jesus entered the heavenly temple in 1844 to begin it. From there, she picked up some followers, & she, her hubby, & a few others began inventing doctrines for a new church, with Thomas Preble & Joseph Bates being prominent, along with the Whites. They began publishing The Present Truth(Now [/i]The Adventist Review[/i]) in 1849. James White also published The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald[/i] during this time. They kept gaining followers til they formally established a church in Battle Creek, Mi. in 1863.

 

[Alofa Atu]

EGW had been one of Miller's followers.

No. She is a follower of truth - Jesus Christ. The movement had grown far beyond Miller, for many others took up the strain (Joseph Wolff, etc), Behold the bridegroom cometh ... even as Luther predicted 300 years previous.

Again, William Miller is not one of the Founders of Seventh-day Adventist movement. Read his apology. He died well before 1863.

If you are going to include Miller as such, then you might as well include Roger Williams, John Wesley, Martin Luther, Vaudois, Peter, Paul, John, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Samuel, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, and so many others all the way back to Adam the first.