War between the States

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
(although I must say there are a lot of historical issues that the average person doesn't know and/or understand - e.g. there were free blacks in the south, there were slaves in the north, there were blacks who owned slaves, etc., etc.).

Now, I find that very interesting, senor vaughn.
Is there anywhere online one can go to and do a read-up ?

 

[Farmer's Wife]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
Not many people know that Lee was offered command of the American army. He thought about it, and concluded that if he had to be disloyal to the United States or to Virginia, he'd be loyal to Virginia.

Uh, Robert E. Lee was a General of an American army...the Confederate States of America! And his dicision had nothing to do with being loyal to the United States or Virginia. But rather he made his dicision on what was RIGHT! Following is a excerpt from the book 'THE SOUTH WAS RIGHT!'

"General Lee's own words will put to rest this Yankee myth. In a letter to Lord Acton, dated December 15, 1866, General Lee described himself as "a citizen of the South". In the same letter General Lee stated that he believed that the maintenance of the reserved rights (State's Rights) under the Original Constitution was essential "to the continuance of a free government." He then emphasized what would happen if those reserved rights were concentrated into a central government; he believed this action would result in a nation that would be "aggressive abroad and despotic at home". General Lee's letter continues with a strong statement regarding the right of any state to "...prescribe for itself the qualifications of suffrage." Hardly the words of a Union apologist!"

Lee's words to Governor Stockdale, "Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."

 

[The Galatian]

I understand that Lee believed his oath to his nation was not as important as his loyalty to Virginia or the doctrine of state's rights.

He did nothing wrong in his own eyes. But Thomas chose America, and Lee chose Virginia.

If Thomas had not chosen America, then the South might very well have won, and slavery would have thereby been preserved for future generations.

Who, knowing what evil slavery is today, would have fought for the South?

 

[The Galatian]

Incidentally, the radicals in the Republican party opposed Lincoln's plan to "let them up easy" as he instructed Grant.

Grant's first implementation of that decision was to allow all Conferate horses and mules to be taken home by the defeated rebels, so that they could have a better chance of getting needed crops in.

Sadly, Lincoln was killed by a southern sympathizer, putting an end to the one man who could have controlled the extremists among the GOP who wanted to "destroy" the South.

Lee was certainly justified in his opinion of the way the Republicans implemented reconstruction. Instead of treating the inhabitants of rebellious states as fellow Americans, they acted as though they were the population of a defeated enemy nation.

That mistreatment has a great deal to do with the continuing resentment over the war the way it turned out.

 

[Farmer's Wife]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
But Thomas chose America, and Lee chose Virginia.

If Thomas had not chosen America, then the South might very well have won, and slavery would have thereby been preserved for future generations.

Who, knowing what evil slavery is today, would have fought for the South?

Once again, (in case you missed it)...it was NOT a war between America and the South...as you keep referring to it! It was The United States of America against The Confederate States of America . Get it?!

Again, slavery was NOT the issue of the War for Southern Independence! Why do you insist on bringing slavery into this discussion?! Oh, wait a minute...I see the strings now!

"What passes as standard American history is really Yankee history written by New Englanders or their puppets to glorify Yankee heroes and ideals."~Dr. Grady McWhiney

 

[Farmer's Wife]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
Grant's first implementation of that decision was to allow all Conferate horses and mules to be taken home by the defeated rebels, so that they could have a better chance of getting needed crops in.

The same General U.S. Grant, who, on April 11, 1863, wrote the following:

"Rebellion has assumed that shape now that it can only terminate by the complete subjugation of the South...It is our duty to weaken the enemy, by destroying their means of subsistence, withdrawing their means of cultivating their fields, and in every other way possible."

 

[LadyEagle]

Farmers Wife: Again, slavery was NOT the issue of the War for Southern Independence! Why do you insist on bringing slavery into this discussion?! Oh, wait a minute...I see the strings now!

See, that's why I posted about slavery on the thread (realizing now, it was the other thread, not this one). Because from past experience on here, whenever North v South is brought up, certain posters (not mentioning any names, but one of them is a Yankee transplant to Texas, if you know what I mean...wink, wink), bring up the slavery issue. As in Always! (We love you anyway, Galatian, even though you really get some of us ticked!!)

 

[pinoybaptist]

I was born and raised in the Philippines and was a bit puzzled when my pastor in the Primitive Baptist church I belong to, and many pastors in most PB churches, seemed to have a strong sympathy towards the Confederacy.
Once, somebody visited someone buried at the back of our church, and I guess it was a weekday when he visited because Sunday of that week when we came to church we all noticed this small confederate flag planted on the ground.
The pastor asked me and some deacons if we should leave the flag there and I said, "Yeah. I don't see any problem with that." And that seemed to please my pastor so I asked him about that war and he gave me books to read and then I understood.
It wasn't about the slaves' issue, as so many have explained here. And reading about it, I think if I were born in this country, I would have been a Confederate.
Fact is, I got a big confederate flag hanging in my room which I bought from Gettysburg.

 

[LadyEagle]

Fact is, I got a big confederate flag hanging in my room which I bought from Gettysburg.
---------------------------------------------

Oh boy, pinoybaptist, ya better get out of town & make a run for it....quick! (Just kidding, LOL!)

 

[The Galatian]

Grant certainly prosecuted the war to bring the rebellious states back into the Union. But once they were back, he agreed with Lincoln about being generous.

Hence his kindness to the defeated rebels when they surrendered. Lee thanked him for it and expressed the hope that it would go a long way toward reducing hostility.

Then he looked toward Lee, and his eyes seemed to be resting on the handsome sword that hung at that officer's side. He said afterward that this set him to thinking that it would be an unnecessary humiliation to require officers to surrender their swords, and a great hardship to deprive them of their personal baggage and horses, and after a short pause he wrote the sentence: 'This will not embrace the side-arms of the officers, nor their private horses or baggage.'

 

[Farmer's Wife]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
If Thomas had not chosen America, then the South might very well have won, and slavery would have thereby been preserved for future generations.

Who, knowing what evil slavery is today, would have fought for the South?

Here are some more slavery facts (in addition to the ones SheEagle already posted).

Who first legalized slavery in America?
Massachuetts

Who first attempted to prohibit the importation of slaves? Virginia. While Patrick Henry was governor, the state outlawed the slave trade on October 5, 1778.

Read Article I, Section IX of the Constitution of the Confederate States of America. It was not the United States Constitution that made the first clear and unqualified prohibition against the slave trade...it was the SOUTH!

Lincoln only immediately 'freed' the slaves in the South. Whereas, the North was allowed to slowly liquidate their slaves.

Here's another question...just where did the South get the few slaves they had? FROM THE NORTH ~ So, while the North was 'supposedly' (as you say) coming to 'free' the Southern slaves their pockets were jingling with the money they had made from selling them in the first place!

So again, slavery was NOT the issue of the War of Southern Independence and we would have DEFINITELY fought for the South (State's Rights)...just like we would have fought against England in the 1700's...if, we had lived in those eras!

[ August 27, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Farmer's Wife ]

 

[Farmer's Wife]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
It wasn't about the slaves' issue, as so many have explained here. And reading about it, I think if I were born in this country, I would have been a Confederate.
Fact is, I got a big confederate flag hanging in my room which I bought from Gettysburg.

Amen for the Northern Confederate!

Most people around here still openly fly the Confederate flag. It's heritage, not hate! However, the Farmer flies the Gadsden flag on our flag pole. We do have a Confederate Flag on our truck. You won't find a butcher's apron around here even though we are Americans and buy American...we believe in what America used to be...not what it has become!

 

[just-want-peace]

...we believe in what America used to be...not what it has become!

And a great big hearty AMEN to that!!!!

 

[rsr]

Galatian:

There's a nice essay on Thomas by George Bowers in "With My Face to the Enemy," a collection that includes material byJames McPherson. Tom Wicker, Stephen Sears and others. If your library has it, it's worth a read.

 

[rsr]

Could the States N. & S. of Virginia, Pennsyla. or N. York, or of some other States however small, remain associated and enjoy their present happiness, if geographically politically and practically thrown apart by such a breach in the chain which unites their interests and binds them together as neighbours & fellow citizens. It could not be. The innovation would be fatal to the Federal Governt. fatal to the Union, and fatal to the hopes of liberty and humanity; and presents a catastrophe at which all ought to shudder.

From that noted "Yankee," James Madison

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch7s28.html

 

[The Galatian]

I'll take a look at it. I agree competely with your take on Thomas. Very underrated, in my opinion.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

rsr - Right from the beginning, Madison supported the notion of a strong Federal government. He was in direct philosophical opposition to Thomas Jefferson who supported a laisez-faire federal system. Also, Madison was a "Yankee" by British standards as he was seperating colonist, but he was a Virginian by residence, and I believe by birth. http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jm4.html

He was a Federalist through and through along with their spear head, Alexander Hamilton.

Living here in Virginia they drill this stuff into us. My wife even attended James Madison University.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

BTW, you should come over some time and we'll go to Ash Lawn, Madison's final residence. It's only about 25 miles from here and on the way to Monticello. I haven't played tourist up there for a good many years now.

 

[rsr]

Thanks for the offer, Clint; maybe someday I'll take you up on it.

While Madison may have been a "federalist" during ratification, he remained Jefferson's key political ally against Hamilton, especially while Madison was speaker of the House.

Anyway, the point was that Madison had a different understanding of union than most of the Founders have been ascribed on this board.

There is a serious lack of yankees on this thread; a poor Okie from a border state can't handle them all.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

I need to post a correction! Ash Lawn was the residence of James Monroe, NOT James Madison! Madison's final home was Montpelier up in Orange County, about an hour from here.

Hey, we'll hit 'em all, rsr! Lot of significant Baptist history in Orange as well.

Hope I didn't make some kid fail their history test with my mistake!