War of Northern Aggression

[agedman]

When I used that title (War of Northern Aggression), I imagine some on the BB would immediately think I was referring to that great civil war of the US, in which the blue bellied Yankees decided to invade the beloved Southern Gentleman's homes and plunder for their own what rightfully was not theirs to take. Even now, there is that spirit in the South to push back against those who union against states rights, property rights, and self determination.

Leaving all that up to the next election (maybe), I would like to know the thinking of the BB on the Biblical Northern Aggression.

Who do you consider is the north (or the northern alliance) in Ezekiel 37 - 39?

What is the evidence offered by the differing parties in the conflict that the aggression is (was) or is (was) not justified?

For those who are Pre-mil and esp. dispensational, do you view a series of major skirmishes before the tribulation in which the peace is made for 3.5 years and then the skirmishes picking back up and escalating to the final battle in the valley of Megiddo or is there another scheme that you consider valid?

For you covenant holders, and non mil folk (not that there is a link between the two), where do you place this prophecy?

Thanks for all your wisdom!!!!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Got to admit, as a Civil War buff I was caught unawares by your thread title! Good job!

"None of these prophecies are real forecasts of actual events. They are just symbolism and allegory. No truth. Not going to happen. They are there to teach principles and lessons."

That is what a covenant friend of mine said (sadly, another reformed Baptist sucked into that amill position). As a dispensationalist, I find that attitude appalling.

And if it is just symbol not substance, one may interpret a hundred other passages in the same magical/mystical way .. and the Bible soon means nothing. It is a faulty hermeneutic to be castigated and repudiated.

 

[kyredneck]

7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20

You agree that this war of northern aggression occurs AFTER the supposed 'earthly' 1000 year reign?

 

[beameup]

38:16: And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days,
and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
38:23: Thus will I magnify myself, and I sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations,
and they shall know that I am the LORD. [YHWH is the only God - as opposed to, say, "Allah".]

Sounds to me like the LORD God wants the whole earth to witness his power "in the Latter Days". Pretty straight-forward stuff.

 

[kyredneck]

.....Sounds to me like the LORD God wants the whole earth to witness his power "in the Latter Days". Pretty straight-forward stuff.

BEFORE or AFTER the supposed 'earthly' 1000 year reign?

 

[agedman]

7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20

You agree that this war of northern aggression occurs AFTER the supposed 'earthly' 1000 year reign?

I don't really see much of a war taking place in this reference. The "fire came down out of heaven" may be the last vestige of what might be consider "time," for the heavens and earth are not found after that. Scientifically, it could be the sun in sudden supernova as all creation breaths out its final gasp and vanishes.


When do you place this battle?

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. ​

 

[DaChaser1]

BEFORE or AFTER the supposed 'earthly' 1000 year reign?

was that prophect referring to the war to come against isreal at start of Great tribulation period, or is it referring that at end of the 1000 rule of Christ?

 

[kyredneck]

I don't really see much of a war taking place in this reference. The "fire came down out of heaven" may be the last vestige of what might be consider "time," for the heavens and earth are not found after that. Scientifically, it could be the sun in sudden supernova as all creation breaths out its final gasp and vanishes.....

"...Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war...."

Irregardless whether you let the brevity of the prophecy minimalize it, the prophet clearly called it 'the war'.

was that prophect referring to the war to come against isreal at start of Great tribulation period, or is it referring that at end of the 1000 rule of Christ?

You and agedman are saying there's going to be not just one, but TWO invasions by Gog and Magog, right?

 

[DaChaser1]

"...Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war...."

Irregardless whether you let the brevity of the prophecy minimalize it, the prophet clearly called it 'the war'.



You and agedman are saying there's going to be not just one, but TWO invasions by Gog and Magog, right?

i see a war between isreal the nation at start of the Great tribulation period, and another war against the saints of God led satan at end of this Age!

I was just saying that not sure which prophecy is referencing which war directly as per the OP?

 

[kyredneck]

i see a war between isreal the nation at start of the Great tribulation period, and another war against the saints of God led satan at end of this Age!

I was just saying that not sure which prophecy is referencing which war directly as per the OP?

Rev 20:8 is clearly directing our attention to Ezek 38-39.

 

[DaChaser1]

Rev 20:8 is clearly directing our attention to Ezek 38-39.

Not really, as Ezeckiel mentions the people of isreal, jewish nation/people as those being attacked at that time, and after the war won by God , there will be a period of 7 years for them to 'clean up", and that would place war at start of Great tribulation, and ending at end of it, time of Christ return!

revelation more of all the peoples saved by God being attacked, and after that immediatly into end of the Age!

 

[kyredneck]

Not really, as Ezeckiel mentions the people of isreal, jewish nation/people as those being attacked at that time, and after the war won by God , there will be a period of 7 years for them to 'clean up", and that would place war at start of Great tribulation, and ending at end of it, time of Christ return!

revelation more of all the peoples saved by God being attacked, and after that immediatly into end of the Age!

"..there will be a period of 7 years for them to 'clean up...."

Wrong JF, it's seven months.

The Israel of Ezek 38-39 is the Israel of God of Gal 6:16, manifested now in the Church.

 

[DaChaser1]

"..there will be a period of 7 years for them to 'clean up...."

Wrong JF, it's seven months.

The Israel of Ezek 38-39 is the Israel of God of Gal 6:16, manifested now in the Church.

No time frame in last war, ended by God, and then final state immediatly...

You also are assuming that the prophets meant Church, when God meant isreal in sense of national isreal!

 

[beameup]

BEFORE or AFTER the supposed 'earthly' 1000 year reign?

I already covered these prophecies covering this time period in two previous great posts:
Ezekiel 37:21-26 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76350
Ezekiel 36:17-28 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76285

These chapters deal with different aspects of the regathering of genetic Israel into the land which the FATHERS Possessed (ie: 12 Tribes).
Part one was already partially completed: 14 May 1948
Part one continued to be completed in June 1967.
Additional phases have yet to take place (see Psalm 83).
The final phase will be the war described in Ezekiel 38-39.

The end result will be national reestablishment of the ONLY religion DESIGNED by God
and given to man, which is, the Temple Worship in Jerusalem - (Tabernacle Worship in the Wilderness was first).

Of course, the Church won't be here, so it is a moot point for the Church.
Like I said, pretty basic and straight-forward.... Prophecy 101.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there [with the heathen]. Neither will I hide my face
any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 39:28-29

 

[DaChaser1]

I already covered these prophecies covering this time period in two previous great posts:
Ezekiel 37:21-26 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76350
Ezekiel 36:17-28 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76285

These chapters deal with different aspects of the regathering of genetic Israel into the land which the FATHERS Possessed (ie: 12 Tribes).
Part one was already partially completed: 14 May 1948
Part one continued to be completed in June 1967.
Additional phases have yet to take place (see Psalm 83).
The final phase will be the war described in Ezekiel 38-39.

The end result will be national reestablishment of the ONLY religion DESIGNED by God
and given to man, which is, the Temple Worship in Jerusalem - (Tabernacle Worship in the Wilderness was first).

Of course, the Church won't be here, so it is a moot point for the Church.
Like I said, pretty basic and straight-forward.... Prophecy 101.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there [with the heathen]. Neither will I hide my face
any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 39:28-29

NOT tp those here who tend to hold that the Church either replaced isreal, or is now 'spiritual isreal!"

 

[beameup]

NOT tp those here who tend to hold that the Church either replaced isreal, or is now 'spiritual isreal!"

See the previous posts:
Ezekiel 36:17-28 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76285
Ezekiel 37:21-26 unfulfilled
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76350

The Holy Spirit has a habit of putting things in the text
so us lowly Gentiles won't get confused. :tongue3:
Look up "Jacob" and "Israel" and see
how many times they are used together.

 

[agedman]

The alignment of Ezekiel must be with the series of battles called Armageddon and not the end of time stated in Rev. 20.

The prophecy has too many points of agreement to be any other.

Of course those who do not agree to the millennial reign have a different view.

But that is not the part of the OP that was the questions.

Who do you consider is the north (or the northern alliance) in Ezekiel 37 - 39?

What is the evidence offered by the differing parties in the conflict that the aggression is (was) or is (was) not justified?​

 

[kyredneck]

“Only fools and madmen are positive in their interpretations of the apocalypse.” C.H. Spurgeon

“Experience teaches that the interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy is exceedingly precarious. There is every reason to believe that the predictions concerning the second advent of Christ, and the events that are to attend and follow it, will disappoint the expectations of commentators, as the expectations of the Jews were disappointed in the manner in which the prophecies concerning the first advent were accomplished.” Charles Hodge

The alignment of Ezekiel must be with the series of battles called Armageddon and not the end of time stated in Rev. 20.

The prophecy has too many points of agreement to be any other.

So I was right, you and JF see not just one, but TWO invasions by Gog and Magog.

Of course those who do not agree to the millennial reign have a different view.

But that is not the part of the OP that was the questions.

Who do you consider is the north (or the northern alliance) in Ezekiel 37 - 39?

What is the evidence offered by the differing parties in the conflict that the aggression is (was) or is (was) not justified?​

I have my own speculations (that's exactly what any futurist interpretation of prophecy is, pure speculation) and I'm pretty sure these speculations of mine would go over like whale dung, especially with the dispies, who would only counter my speculations with their speculations. I'm inclined to keep my speculations to myself for now.

I thought perhaps if we could first find at least one point of agreement it might be worth the time to look for another point of agreement.

 

[agedman]

I thought perhaps if we could first find at least one point of agreement it might be worth the time to look for another point of agreement.

Our first point of agreement is that Christ is coming.

Except for some who consider Christ returned in the 60-70 AD we are all pretty much futuristic in thinking.

As far as "two comings" I don't see that as a problem, for those who hold to the millennial reigning Christ, He isn't coming twice but is already here. The final uprising is stopped by The Father ending all time and earth/heaven existence as the evil surround the "camp of the saints."

I'm uncertain how non-millennial thinkers place chapters previous to Rev. 20. I suppose that much of the non-millennial thinking of both Ezekiel and Rev would have to be allegorical. It would be wise for me to have some understanding the view.

 

[kyredneck]

.....Rev would have to be allegorical. It would be wise for me to have some understanding the view.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

At the very outset we're told that the book was not given in a literal manner.