Well of course. So you do believe God does respond to what man does in specific instances of His choosing or according to His word and promises.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Warning: anyone who is a habitual sinner is NOT in a saved state
- Thread starter Samuels
- Start date
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
This refers to the RESTORATION. Restoration has to do with receiving spiritual gifts: prophecy, healing , gift of tongues, casting out demons , raising the dead. I doubt any of these gifts are truly present in any BAC. Few and far between outside of the apostles possessed these gifts. There have been some not many. Judas experienced receiving these gifts. When he sold out the faith after having experienced these gifts he could not be restored again. Though this was before Christ's crucifixion it is the reason for it. This is why the teaching of Hebrews states to fall away again , it is impossible to restore again to repentance for one has crucified Christ again.
If you have not experienced the Restoration stage, which follows your rebirth,(being born again) you have never lost your salvation you have HINDERED GROWTH, if you have fallen and sinned multiple times. If you get back up it is because you do not love your sin. There is a difference between a sinner and one who loves sin. One who abides will not keep on sinning and he who does not keep on sinning will be fully restored and receive spiritual gifts not just knowledge and can SIN NO MORE as a Command for freewill is always present . This is what Hebrews speaks of. There is more to being Christian than just being Born again. There is the walk in the new birth to Full Restoration.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well of course. I was very specific. If God responds to what man does in the granting of salvation, it is works based salvation.
If man responds to what God has done in the granting of salvation, it is grace.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to understand what you are teaching. You seem to be saying a Christian experiences an intermediate state after salvation but before restoration. During that time, the Christian can sin, which hinders spiritual growth but doesn't mean they have lost salvation.
Once a Christian recieves "restoration", which is evidenced by the reception of miraculous spiritual gifts, they have reached a state of sinless perfection.
It is at this point that Hebrews 6 is speaking of.
The Christian is now in danger of losing their salvation permanently if they fall from their state of sinless perfection.
Did I understand correctly what you are teaching?
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
I'll put scripture to the words that you may understand better, I was trying to be quick in response.
You are only in danger if you leave salvation for the world reward. Sheep are meek and are always in danger because there is a predator . I precede with caution in fear of God not the world. Hebrews is the meat. St.Paul speaks of his wrestling and in him we see this wrestling with self and the devil that he overcame.
Struggling with Sin Romans 7:17-19
…17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do.…
20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Paul is revealing his struggle with sin. He is as the many that want to do right but the flesh is warring against the spirit, which governs ones mind. He is experiencing the birth pains of the soul. As his soul becomes as Christ his flesh retains the sinful nature.
But we know this is not Paul's end his end is what Christ came to the world for, to take away sin.
Children of God 1Jihn 3:5-7
…5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.…
Paul is an apostle , he revealed his struggles to us and we can take comfort in that. We are to work out salvation in fear and trembling.
1 Peter 2:11
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Paul did this he did not act according to the flesh but felt its lust.
This fulfills what was spoken to Cain but Cain himself did not and could fulfill:
Genesis:
Cain and Abel
…5but He had no regard for Cain and his offering. So Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell. 6“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; you are its object of desire, but you must master it.”…
Sin was crouching at Paul's door(flesh) but instead of growing angry he remained humble and kept trying and working out of grace in his soul to conquer the flesh. He masters the flesh, for that is the end for all saints, Victory over sin in the flesh.
You get to the point when you abide. That means the flesh is in submission , those fleshly desires subside and that is no longer your struggle. The only struggle is with the world and the devil both of which at your Restoration will be pressing you hard.
1 John 4:4
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
We first overcome the flesh, then those who press us who are of the devil. Point : no one who remains in Him keeps ON sinning, a saint is a sinner who gets back up. It is like a boxing match with yourself , those who love the Lord trust , ask for forgiveness , they always examine their hearts and conscious . They learn and try again, always hopeful and seeking to please God and he rewards them with a victory over each trial. Genesis: 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, but eventually it becomes obedient and the spirit carries it, as Christ carried the cross.
Victory is for those who truly love Christ!
One who rejects his restoration will not be spared as God did not spare the angels.
To be continued...
Last edited:
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Continued from post #45
Deliverance from False Prophets 2Peter 2:1-22
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with tales they have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darknessa until their judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction,b reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;c 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
10Such punishment is specially reserved for those who indulge the corrupt desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and self-willed, these men are unafraid to slander angelic majesties. 11Yet not even angels, though greater in strength and power, dare to bring such slanderous charges against them before the Lord.
12These men are like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed. They blaspheme in matters they do not understand, and like such creatures, they too will be destroyed. 13The harm they will suffer is the wages of their wickedness.
They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deception as they feast with you. 14Their eyes are full of adultery; their desire for sin is never satisfied; they seduce the unstable. They are accursed children with hearts trained in greed.
15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor,d who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
Verse 15: To leave the straight way indicates a first being on the straight way. What is the straight way?
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Those who leave the Straight way -Restoration ....everything is straight and clean and perfect and tidy, the way you need to be to enter heaven, they are like the fallen angels. They knew the way of God and had special gifts and CHOSE to leave this, for self worship and worldly pleasure, power and esteem.
In the world- as a Christian you are treated poorly and some may choose the way of the world even after having tasted of the heavenly gifts.
CONTINUING 2Peter 2:
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice those who are just escaping from others who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption. For a man is a slave to whatever has overcome him.
20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,e only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
Verses 20-22 sums up my argument. Judas fell prey to the false words of the Pharisees and sold out Christ ,his state ended up worse than when Christ first found him.
Deliverance from False Prophets 2Peter 2:1-22
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with tales they have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darknessa until their judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction,b reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;c 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
10Such punishment is specially reserved for those who indulge the corrupt desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and self-willed, these men are unafraid to slander angelic majesties. 11Yet not even angels, though greater in strength and power, dare to bring such slanderous charges against them before the Lord.
12These men are like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed. They blaspheme in matters they do not understand, and like such creatures, they too will be destroyed. 13The harm they will suffer is the wages of their wickedness.
They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deception as they feast with you. 14Their eyes are full of adultery; their desire for sin is never satisfied; they seduce the unstable. They are accursed children with hearts trained in greed.
15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor,d who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
Verse 15: To leave the straight way indicates a first being on the straight way. What is the straight way?
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Those who leave the Straight way -Restoration ....everything is straight and clean and perfect and tidy, the way you need to be to enter heaven, they are like the fallen angels. They knew the way of God and had special gifts and CHOSE to leave this, for self worship and worldly pleasure, power and esteem.
In the world- as a Christian you are treated poorly and some may choose the way of the world even after having tasted of the heavenly gifts.
CONTINUING 2Peter 2:
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice those who are just escaping from others who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption. For a man is a slave to whatever has overcome him.
20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,e only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
Verses 20-22 sums up my argument. Judas fell prey to the false words of the Pharisees and sold out Christ ,his state ended up worse than when Christ first found him.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Your beliefs on this issue rely heavily on an intermediate state that occurs after being "born again" but before a state of "restoration" which results in Spiritual gifts and a sinless perfection. It it is only after reaching this state, you said, that a Christian is in danger of losing salvation permanently.
I read all the scripture verses you posted to support this belief. The word "restoration" did not appear in any of them.
I'm going to disagree with you. Thanks for the conversation.
Peace to you.
God does not ever change his mind on what He is going to do, but He does ordain that our prayers and decisions will be part of His decision making!
How about if I would pray and ask God for a healing? If He heals me, did I do the healing work by my asking or did God? Or did we both?
That wouldn't be the Calvinistic view would it? If I ask God for salvation, then you are saying I had a part in His decision, right?
In order to even want to ask God to save you, he would first have to give you a new heart and mind willing to now receive Jesus to save you!
Steaver... That's not my view of Salvation... It's all of God and none of me!... If its my decision where is the Sovereign Grace of God in that?... You do the works of God because you are saved, and not to get saved!... God alone saves his own!... Brother Glen
from start to finish, salvation is of the Lord....Steaver... That's not my view of Salvation... It's all of God and none of me!... If its my decision where is the Sovereign Grace of God in that?... You do the works of God because you are saved, and not to get saved!... God alone saves his own!... Brother Glen
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Restore, Restored (restoration), Renew, Renewed ( renewal) all scriptural .......I guess reading is not your forte?
Hebrews 6:5-6
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away— to be RESTORED again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
TO HAVE BEEN RESTORED ONCE MEANS YOU HAD A RESTORATION, hello.....not complicated. Some bibles say renewed. ALL THE SAME THING. As for disagreeing with me , it is not me who stated what I shared , the scriptures did, I simply GET IT and AGREE and UPHOLD, SCRIPTURE ALONE. You precede without caution, I will abide in the Word and HEED all scriptural warning and advice and will not take my salvation for granted, humble obedience is KEY to keeping your salvation.
Romans 9:20
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
You can have whatever problem you want to have..... as to how God speaks and what He expects. I will not answer back to Him when He clearly laid out HIS PLAN for Salvation, His teaching- how to keep your Salvation and His WARNING in lesson on how you can LOOSE YOUR SALVATION. I take HIM at HIS WORD. And no matter if it does not make you feel warm and fuzzy inside makes NO difference to HIM. You go follow your cream puff reinventing of the Word, I will hang with the Master Yeshua Hamashiach.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
That is right SALVATION is of the Lord. What choices did you make today....if any?
Did you say yes to the Lord?Steaver... That's not my view of Salvation... It's all of God and none of me!... If its my decision where is the Sovereign Grace of God in that?... You do the works of God because you are saved, and not to get saved!... God alone saves his own!... Brother Glen
Ahhh but you have selective view of God's Sovereignty. Not applying it to all events in time. God gave Adam a choice. If Adam had a choice, where is the Sovereign Grace of God in that?
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Isn't that who Christ came to save, habitual sinners?... Brother Glen
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Now would one of you brethren be so kind as to show me a righteousness man in that statement besides Jesus Christ!
Are all men saved then without saying yes and accepting the grace of salvation in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? Is there any action on our part, as to a yes or no? And at any time can a yes or no be applied by one, in growing in that grace once that grace is first accepted?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
if you have the power to heal yourself or anyone else, please give glory to God, you didn't do it yourself. Not one bit came from you.
I don't mean to be disagreeable but in my belief you have the cart before the horse... It wasn't that accepted Christ, it was that Christ accepted me... Brother Glen
Christ alone... Saves his own!
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Obviously, He is the Saviour ,that is not what I am asking...... do you have to accept that salvation by a yes? That is not complicated . If you do not have to accept by the action of yes why are you or any of us preaching ? Obviously ones yes follows the after, of Christ having come. Really? Obviously Him coming as man to save men is what He obviously did. The question is -does accepting involve saying yes to Him ,an action , a work of free will on our part?I don't mean to be disagreeable but in my belief you have the cart before the horse... It wasn't that accepted Christ, it was that Christ accepted me... Brother Glen
Christ alone... Saves his own!
And actually you do mean to be disagreeable because you refuse to answer the crux of the question posed. This is not complicated . It is either a yes or a no.
Matthew 5:37
37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one.
Obviously we can not save ourselves , that is why He came but, do we have to say yes to that salvation? Even if a baby is baptised at birth the child when at the age of reason and rational still has to consciously say yes to Christ no? If not, why would many Protestants hold to the argument that infant baptism is not valid. Not all Protestants but many. I prefer to think of infant baptism as preparing fertile ground. As long as you keep it tilled and weed free through a Holy upbringing, teaching in Christ -the deeper works of grace come.
Last edited: