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- Thread starter Samuels
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Correct. Only God can heal. So did my prayer have anything to do with God's Sovereign Grace to heal me? If not, what is the point of the prayer?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Please understand what I'm saying. My comment concerns God granting salvation. For salvation to occur, the person responds in faith to what God has done in their life.
Concerning your question about whether God responds to your prayer concerning healing... This is how I view it.
God knows everything. God knows what He is going to do and when He is going to do it. God knows what you are going to do and when you are going to do it.
Let's say God wants you to trust Him and have a closer relationship with Him. He knows you are going to get sick. He puts someone into your life that encourages you to pray as in relationship with God, maybe years or decades before you get sick.
When you get sick, God Holy Spirit brings to remembrance what you have been taught concerning prayer. You feel God Holy Spirit drawing you toward that relationship (even though you might not recognize it is God at the time)
You call on God in prayer for healing, trusting Him whether He heals you or not. You realize that physical health is not as important as spiritual health
God has succeeded in drawing you into a closer relationship with Himself, for your benefit.
Later, God will bring people into your life that are dealing with similar problems. You become the mentor, teaching them the importance if prayer in relationship to God.
You are not getting God's attention with your prayer for healing. God has been working in your life for decades getting your attention and bringing you to the point where you will demonstrate your love and trust for Him with your prayer. And it is for your benefit.
That is how I see it.
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So a good short summary of what you said would be God causes one to pray, not just influences one to pray or gives one a choice to pray or not pray. For if one chose to pray on their own, even if influenced by God to do so, one would be doing a work towards one's healing and taking away from God's Sovereignty. But if God causes one to pray, then God has done all the work, if you are determining that prayer/faith must be seen as a work.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No. I don't see that as a good short summary.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
God changes the heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 33:26, John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ), and a believer prays to God with unfeigned words out of that new heart ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ).
The choice is theirs, but they will pray...because they know that He is their deliverer and Saviour.
Men pray to God everyday, but He only hears the prayer of the believer:
" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 )
Those that are righteous are that way because God declared them righteous ( Romans 8:33 ) through the blood of His Son ( Romans 5:9, Ephesians 1:7 ), not by works of righteousness which they have done ( Titus 3:5-6 ). Their faith is evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of their justification ( Romans 4:4-5, Romans 5:1-2 ), not a "pre-requisite".
If gaining eternal life were a matter of doing something to gain it, then it would be works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
It is by grace, not works, so that no man may boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) not a reward for good behavior ( again, Titus 3:5-6 ).
According to God's word, there is only one way to work for one's salvation...to keep every jot and tittle of the Law ( Galatians 5:3 ), but if one falters in only one commandment, he or she is guilty of the whole Law ( James 2:10 ).
I imagine you already know all this, but I listed it out just to cover the details.
I personally know of no man who has kept the Law from birth on up, save the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is the only one who has ever kept it perfectly.
His work on the cross is what we believe in and on, not our own paltry efforts and filthy "righteousness" ( Isaiah 64:6 ).
" Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:4-5 )
To the person that works for their salvation, God would end up being indebted to them, instead of being gracious to them.
Those that believe, their faith is counted ( credited to them ) for righteousness.
God's work in salvation is His alone ( Psalms 3:8, Psalms 62:1, Jonah 2:9 ).
If it were a matter of cooperation, then that would allow men the possibility of taking credit for their part in God saving someone...and He will not share that credit with anyone.
He is a jealous God ( Exodus 34:14 ) and He is merciful and compassionate with whom He will be merciful and compassionate ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ).
He wants His children to be eternally grateful for His gift, and they know full well what it cost Him...His Son.
They also know that were it not for His gift, then they all would be thrown into Hell ( Revelation 20:15 ), where they deserve to be.
God does not cause the believer to pray, He does all the work necessary to bring a person to Himself ( Psalms 65:4 ), and He then is glorified in their prayer and thanksgiving for His unspeakable gift.
In a believer, prayer comes from the heart, not from feigned lips ( Psalms 17:1 ).
God looks upon His own ( 2 Timothy 2:19 )...He sees the heart ( 1 Samuel 16:7 ) and knows that they do not draw near Him with just their lips, but with their heart also.
Faith, on the other hand, is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) that accompanies the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23, John 17:3 ) and is authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
Faith is not a work, it is trust in Jesus' finished work on the cross, and God's words that bear witness to this.
Finally, it is a work of God for someone to believe on Christ ( John 6:29 ).
If a person does not believe, then God did not work.
May He bless you richly, sir.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well said. No need to add anything. Thanks.No.
God changes the heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 33:26, John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ), and a believer prays to God with unfeigned words out of that new heart ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ).
The choice is theirs, but they will pray...because they know that He is their deliverer and Saviour.
Men pray to God everyday, but He only hears the prayer of the believer:
" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 )
Those that are righteous are that way because God declared them righteous ( Romans 8:33 ) through the blood of His Son ( Romans 5:9, Ephesians 1:7 ), not by works of righteousness which they have done ( Titus 3:5-6 ). Their faith is evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of their justification ( Romans 4:4-5, Romans 5:1-2 ), not a "pre-requisite".
If gaining eternal life were a matter of doing something to gain it, then it would be works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
It is by grace, not works, so that no man may boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) not a reward for good behavior ( again, Titus 3:5-6 ).
According to God's word, there is only one way to work for one's salvation...to keep every jot and tittle of the Law ( Galatians 5:3 ), but if one falters in only one commandment, he or she is guilty of the whole Law ( James 2:10 ).
I imagine you already know all this, but I listed it out just to cover the details.
I personally know of no man who has kept the Law from birth on up, save the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is the only one who has ever kept it perfectly.
His work on the cross is what we believe in and on, not our own paltry efforts and filthy "righteousness" ( Isaiah 64:6 ).
" Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:4-5 )
To the person that works for their salvation, God would end up being indebted to them, instead of being gracious to them.
Those that believe, their faith is counted for righteousness.
God's work in salvation is His alone ( Psalms 3:8, Psalms 62:1, Jonah 2:9 ).
If it were a matter of cooperation, then that would allow men the possibility of taking credit for their part in God saving someone...and He will not share that credit with anyone.
He is a jealous God ( Exodus 34:14 ) and He is merciful and compassionate with whom He will be merciful and compassionate ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ).
He wants His children to be eternally grateful for His gift, and they know full well what it cost Him...His Son.
They also know that were it not for His gift, then they all would be thrown into Hell ( Revelation 20:15 ), where they deserve to be.
God does not cause the believer to pray, He does all the work necessary to bring a person to Himself ( Psalms 65:4 ), and He then is glorified in their prayer and thanksgiving for His unspeakable gift.
In a believer, prayer comes from the heart, not from feigned lips ( Psalms 17:1 ).
God looks upon His own ( 2 Timothy 2:19 )...He sees the heart ( 1 Samuel 16:7 ) and knows that they do not draw near Him with just their lips, but with their heart also.
Faith, on the other hand, is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) that accompanies the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23, John 17:3 ) and is authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
Faith is not a work, it is trust in Jesus' finished work on the cross, and God's words that bear witness to this.
Finally, it is a work of God for someone to believe on Christ ( John 6:29 ).
If a person does not believe, then God did not work.
May He bless you richly, sir.
Is this what you teach your children?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
If I had them, I would teach them the Scriptures:
"The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight." ( Proverbs 15:8 )
" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 )
That's just a sampling of the many truths that are found in the Psalms and Proverbs.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same, yesterday, today and forever ( Hebrews 13:8 ), so He is the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New.
The same God, who hates sin and sinners ( Psalms 5:5 ), loves His children ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).
Those that believe on Jesus Christ.
Righteousness comes by Jesus Christ ( Romans 3:22-23 ) and is a product of the new birth.
Believers are made the righteousness of God "in Him" ( 2 Corinthians 5:21 ).
Anyone outside the body of Christ is not declared righteous, not cleansed of their sin in God's eyes by the blood of Christ.
Therefore, God will not answers their prayers, at least in the same way that He answers the prayers of His children.
Yes, He does make the rain to fall on the just and the unjust ( Matthew 5:45 ) and He is kind and merciful in this life even to the unsaved...
But His eternal love and favor does not rest on them.
If it did, then He would save them.
What do you teach your children, if I may ask?
This is unfortunate thinking.
Often one must then forced to ascribe to the view of some manner of preceding or prevenient grace a grace that is not found in the Scriptures.
There is no “freedom of the will” for our”nature” is as sin shackled as out intellect outside of salvation.
Hence, believers are a new creature, a new creation, which includes a new will (not the old reformed or conformed) that when the believer crosses over there is not any smidgen of the flesh, the old will of the first birth in this flesh nor any stench of this life carried into eternity.
It seems you are not sure considering your first statement was God only hears the prayers of believers. This is why I asked you if you teach your children to pray. You said you have none to teach, then in a broader sense does your church teach the children to pray in SS?
The Scriptures. As for the topic about prayer, I taught them to pray to Jesus Christ before they were ever saved. Not sure how you would conduct a children's SS class or even your own children if you had any. Be kinda weird to say to them "Now we are going to pray, anyone here who understands and believes Jesus is the Son of God can pray with me, any others who are not sure or do not know, don't bother to pray because Jesus will not hear you".
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm quite sure of what Scripture says regarding answered prayer.
God does deliver from calamity, those He does not save eternally ( Psalms 107:23-31, 1 Timothy 4:10 ).
But His ear ( affection ) is towards the righteous, those He has made righteous by the blood of Christ.
It is to them that this promise is made:
" Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." ( Matthew 7:7-8 )
I don't believe in "Sunday School".
But the church I was converted in and spent over 25 years in, did.
Yes, they taught children, even those who made no profession of faith, to pray to God.
What they should have done was to preach the Gospel to them... and only those who believed should have been allowed in, in my estimation.
The church is for believers, not unbelievers.
Those who trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
Then may I suggest that you teach them all of the Scriptures?
It seems that my quoting the Psalms and Proverbs about God hating the worker of iniquity, may not be being taught.
God is to be "feared" ( respected ) for Scriptural reasons.
The biggest of those reasons is, mankind's disobedience to Him.
All growing up in Independent Baptist churches, I heard a lot about God loving all men equally.
I got a rude awakening when I started reading Scripture for myself.
There's quite a bit in that Book that wasn't even mentioned.
Look, Steaver, I'm not trying to be mean, or even annoying, but:
Another lesson I learned the hard way over my 40 years of being a believer, is that if one repeats an untruth enough times, people will start to believe it...especially if said convincingly and from pulpits.
"Christ died for the sins of all men".
No, He didn't.
He died for the sins of His people ( Isaiah 53:4-12, Matthew 1:21 John 10:11, John 15:13-14 )
"God is waiting for you to make a decision".
No, He isn't ( Daniel 4:35 ).
"God loves the sinner, not the sin"
Sure He does...if they are one of His children.
Otherwise, He hates the worker of iniquity, and will cast those He does not love into eternal Hellfire.
You don't really think that God would cast someone He loves into Hell, and call them "cursed" ( Matthew 25:41 ) or "anathema" ( cursed, 1 Corinthians 16:22 ), do you?
The ones He loves, He saves:
" Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:34 ).
Those He doesn't, He tells this:
" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 )
When I realized the enormity of Scripture with regard to God's love, it caused me to sober up...precisely what He wanted me to do:
" Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;" ( 1 Peter 1:13 )
So, as an exercise in digging through Scripture for yourself and finding the answers:
Other than what John 3:16 seems to say, do you know of any Scriptures that clearly state that God loves all men?
and phrases it that way?
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And what would be your standard as to who truly believes and who was just saying they believed?
No suggestion needed. Always teach the full counsel of God's Word. When you don't, things like Calvinism creeps in.
Then to be honest and true according to this view, you would tell your children over the years of their lives that God might or might not love them. They will have to wait and see. And then when you find out if God loves you, then you can go ahead and begin praying to Him.
Or, you could do as Jesus said to the Pharisees, "suffer not the little children to come unto me".
It says what it says. The Gospel is not as complicated as Calvinist would make it out to be.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The same thing that is the standard when I look at a false teacher, their fruits ( Matthew 7:15-20 ).
However, God's children take time to grow, and sometimes they can look like tares, in my estimation.
I cannot know for sure, since I cannot see the heart that God has created within a person...but eventually His work will come out and be seen visibly.
What is "Calvinism"?
John Calvin's teachings in their entirety?
I don't subscribe to them.
I trust God's word alone.
Furthermore, does what you teach end up glorifying God, or men?
Do you teach cooperation with respect to salvation, or God's operation?
Is salvation truly "of the Lord"?
To claim that salvation is of the Lord, and then to teach that every aspect of salvation is not of the Lord, is contradictory, as I see it.
Do you teach that God chooses people to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) or that He bases His choice on their choice?
I think it would be wiser to tell them that you love them...and then to preach to them the Gospel and see who responds.
Then tell them that God loves them, if they believe.
Take this test, if you are so inclined:
Ignore John 3:16 for a moment, and look at every passage where someone is told that God loves them...
How many do you find that are not aimed at believers?
The epistles were written to churches composed of believers, not unbelievers.
Do you know of any other passages outside of the epistles, where the audience is told that God loves them?
If so, please find them and then look at them carefully, in context with the passages around them.
Best wishes.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Here's the passage I think you are referring to:
" Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence." ( Matthew 19:13-15 )
First, I see that His disciples rebuked the people who brought to Him little children.
Then He tells them to suffer ( put up with, allow ) little children and to forbid them not to come...for OF such is the kingdom of Heaven.
He's using little children as an example of the children of God, not because He loves all the children of this world.
Again, if things are taught from pulpits often enough, they will be believed, good sir.
Why?
Because so many people hold teachers to a higher position...Bible teachers notwithstanding.
Do you believe that God loves everyone in the eternal sense?
Then why doesn't He save them?
Is salvation "of the Lord", or isn't it?
Is it entirely His work, or does man contribute something to His work, thereby polluting it and causing it to be a work of other than His grace alone ( Romans 11:5-6 )?
I agree.
It says what it says.
What does it say to you?
If you think it tells us that God loves everyone, perhaps you should build a case from Scripture for the concept, and see if God's love extends to, for example, all the people that He commanded the Israelites to wipe out when they were conquering the Promised Land...and didn't send in prophets or missionaries to preach His coming judgment to, like He did with Nineveh.
Jericho comes to mind.
Sodom and Gomorrha before that, in the days of Abraham.
Did He love the Egyptians that He drowned in the Red Sea?
That He killed the first-born of, during the plagues?
Did He love all the people He drowned in the Flood?
Did He love all the people in Asia that were dying and going to Hell when He forbid Paul and Silas to go into Asia with the Gospel ( Acts of the Apostles 16:6-7 )?
Perhaps you should prove it out from Scripture, rather than simply believing what was told to you by some pastor with good intentions, but didn't take all of God's words seriously.
The Gospel is everything that God tells believers through His word, about how and why He saves any of us.
It includes every detail about salvation.
There are over 31,000 "verses" in the AV, and what I see presented in most visible churches these days is a gospel that's limited to John 3:16, the "Romans Road" and about 30 other passages.
The rest of the Bible goes largely untouched by the vast majority of today's preachers...especially anything having to do with election, predestination, calling and so forth.
God tells believers, how and why they are saved... and Acts of the Apostles 13:48 is but one passage that defines it.
John 3:16 is another, while John 6:64-65 is yet another.
John 6:29, John 10:26, Ephesians 1:4-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Philippians 1:29, and many others tell us more of those details.
In fact, the Bible is probably the most detailed book that was ever written...more so than even engineering technical manuals, as I see it, and it was written for our comfort and our education as His children.
It was never meant to be read or presented as a collection of "verses", but to be read as a whole, starting at the beginning and proceeding all the way to the end...Genesis to Revelation.
May He bless you richly, in both this life and the next, and I wish you well, sir.
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OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Since you say it is the believers that He uses this example of children for "allow" the little children to come , let me ask you..... this allowing, would it also apply to baby baptism? Can the little ones of believing parents be baptized while they are yet little? I mean since the kingdom of heaven is for such? It was after all the mothers who were bringing these little ones to Christ. Is it fair to say that little children should not be hindered? I am just curious because many say infant baptism is useless ?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't see Scripture teaching the baptism of infants...only those who have believed on Christ.
Do you see something else?
If so, then please quote it.
I know of several religious institutions that teach infant baptism, but I am unable to find any infants being baptized in the book of Acts.
In addition, the reasons that they teach it are because of a misunderstanding of certain passages that seem to show it washing away sins in God's eyes.
See my reply above.
I didn't say it was "for such"...Scripture says OF such.
Let's see what other Scripture has to say on the matter:
" And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ( Matthew 18:3 )
AS little children.
This means to me, that unless a person is born again and becomes AS a little child in their affections and obedience towards God, then they shall not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.
I see Jesus using the example of not hindering children, because He said this of the Pharisees:
" Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." ( Luke 11:52 )
They were burdening the children of God with their religious tradition, and hindering them from entering in.
Christ uses many physical associations when describing the spiritual.
It is useless.
Baptism is for believers, as an association and identification of their sins being washed away by the blood of Christ, and His being raised again.
Unless a child comprehends the Gospel, is burdened by their sins and realizes their predicament before God, then they, like other unbelievers, have no identification with a Saviour.
Until that happens, baptism is meaningless.
I encourage you to read the Scriptures for yourself...see if this is what you come up with after reading it through several times.
Start with Matthew and run all the way through to Revelation.
Then do it again.
May God bless you.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Matthew 19:13-4
13Then the little children were BROUGHT to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them; and the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Who brought the children? It wasn't His disciples. I think we can take something from this passage concerning infant (child) baptism, no?
14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”…
13Then the little children were BROUGHT to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them; and the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Who brought the children? It wasn't His disciples. I think we can take something from this passage concerning infant (child) baptism, no?
14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”…
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ( Matthew 16:16 )
Notice what is present in the passage above...
Belief in Jesus Christ.
Belief of the Gospel.
Baptism serves no purpose unless accompanied by belief.
Belief on Jesus Christ and His finished work for us on the cross.
I wish you well, sir.
Notice what is present in the passage above...
Belief in Jesus Christ.
Belief of the Gospel.
Baptism serves no purpose unless accompanied by belief.
Belief on Jesus Christ and His finished work for us on the cross.
I wish you well, sir.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
find that when men get on their HIGH HORSE Christ rides a
Notice what is present here in these verses:
Matthew 19:13-14
13Then the little children were BROUGHT to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them; and the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Who brought the children? THE PARENTS it wasn't His disciples. Why did they bring them?...because they believe. I think we can take something from this passage concerning infant (child) baptism, no?
Proverbs 22:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
To part from something means one must first be in or part of something. Children can be part of the faith based on the training of their parents otherwise there is no need for verses such as this.
POINT: There is a lot who think as you do. It is your choice , if YOU do not or would NOT baptize your baby. However, their are those who choose to present their children to Christ that they may be blessed. It is an act of faith that parents are compelled to present their gifts (children) to the Lord of lords and King of kings. People should not judge this as not effective or unimportant.
Hope is never unimportant and any good act in faith, to no avail. There is a basis for child baptism and it is not wrong. Your 500 year history is not the begin and end all. The ancient way has baptized their children and so have Catholics, if you do not want to- that is your choice but ,other denominations should not be JUDGED for so doing.
So stop hindering the children. And it is not: "Of such"
Matthew 19: 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”…
When men get on their HIGH HORSE Christ rides away on a donkey.
I
Notice what is present here in these verses:
Matthew 19:13-14
13Then the little children were BROUGHT to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them; and the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Who brought the children? THE PARENTS it wasn't His disciples. Why did they bring them?...because they believe. I think we can take something from this passage concerning infant (child) baptism, no?
Proverbs 22:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
To part from something means one must first be in or part of something. Children can be part of the faith based on the training of their parents otherwise there is no need for verses such as this.
POINT: There is a lot who think as you do. It is your choice , if YOU do not or would NOT baptize your baby. However, their are those who choose to present their children to Christ that they may be blessed. It is an act of faith that parents are compelled to present their gifts (children) to the Lord of lords and King of kings. People should not judge this as not effective or unimportant.
Hope is never unimportant and any good act in faith, to no avail. There is a basis for child baptism and it is not wrong. Your 500 year history is not the begin and end all. The ancient way has baptized their children and so have Catholics, if you do not want to- that is your choice but ,other denominations should not be JUDGED for so doing.
So stop hindering the children. And it is not: "Of such"
IT IS "TO SUCH AS THESE"- NOT OF SUCH.
Matthew 19: 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”…
When men get on their HIGH HORSE Christ rides away on a donkey.