Warning: anyone who is a habitual sinner is NOT in a saved state

[Dave G]

And that is why all churches have unbelievers in them. God says let them and He will sort them out.

I agree ( Matthew 13:27-30, 1 Samuel 16:7, Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ).

Now if there is one in the church who is harming others through sin, God also says that person needs to be confronted and if they will not repent they are to be removed.

I agree ( 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ).

Basically, TULIP. I am a one point Calvinist myself, a (P)

So was I, at one time.

God

I urge you to re-evaluate how what you believe, glorifies God in its entirety... instead of allowing men the potential to take credit for even one facet of their gaining what Scriptures tells us is a gift.

Salvation is by grace through faith ( not by it )...lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

 

[Dave G]

Both

Both cooperation and God's operation?
Then salvation isn't really "of the Lord", if that is true.

For eternal life to be a gift ( Romans 6:22-23 ), then God has to give it...not mankind to "accept it", and everything that appears to be a "requirement" has to be given as well.
For it to be a reward, then God has to require something, no matter how big or small from our point of view, from man in payment.



How exactly does one pay God, when all that they have comes from Him ( John 3:27, 1 Corinthians 4:7, James 1:17 )?
When they are blind, naked and hungry, spiritually ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Revelation 3:17 )?
What form would that payment take?

Belief ( Incidentally, belief is not a requirement...it is a gift ( Philippians 1:29 ) given to God's children. )?
Belief plus repentance?
Belief plus repentance plus baptism?
Belief ( John 3:16 ), plus repentance, plus baptism ( Acts of the Apostles 2:38 ), plus good works ( James 2:17 ), plus enduring to the end ( Matthew 24:13 ), plus obedience to His commands ( Matthew 7:21 ), plus... what?

I'm not ridiculing you, steaver...
I'm showing you where this line of thinking actually leads.
It leads to mankind having to "pony up" and do something, however small, to merit God's grace.

Anything in the above, if we as men are responsible for it, makes God indebted to us ( Romans 4:4 ).
Therefore, if salvation could be earned by doing something, then that would make it by something other than the sheer grace of God Almighty ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

If man is anything other than a passive recipient of the grace of God, then it is based on his efforts, because that is the deciding factor...what man does, regardless of what God does or doesn't do.
With respect, every religion I know of teaches or believes some form of that.

I don't see the Bible teaching that anywhere, except if taken in bits and relevant chunks.
Scripture, if taken in verses like building blocks, can be used to build some very interesting "buildings"...
Take a look at what this man says:

False Doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

Watch how he uses the Scriptures...it's very convincing to many.
Some think "Calvinists" do this, too.

Here's something I'd like you to think about objectively...

Why would anyone want to purposefully tell someone that God is selective in who He saves, that God blinds people to His grace, and that He doesn't love anyone except His children?
Shouldn't people who want to go to Heaven ( and want others to go, as well ) be telling people how anyone can get there?
With no limitations?

But the Bible tells us that there are few that be saved ( Matthew 7:14 ).

Do you know of any other explanation of the doctrine of salvation that tells people the answer, in detail, to that very statement, than what is hated by most and called "Calvinism" ( I'm not talking about "Reformed Theology"...I'm talking about "T.U.L.I.P." )?

Based on the OP's position ( what I see as 5 point "Arminianism" ), those that are saved walk a very fine, narrow path...and it is by their own efforts, front to back.
Based on what I grew up with ( 4 point "Arminianism" / 1 point "Calvinism" / "Traditionalism" ), few are saved, but there is nothing to answer the Scriptures as to why only some believe...why most who "believe" fall away, and why Christ will say to them, "I never knew you" ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
Based on "Calvinism", few are saved and everything gets answered.

However, forget "Calvinism" for a moment;
Scripture itself can answer all those questions, steaver.
I will never quote anything or anyone outside of that to tell someone why I believe what I believe.

 

[Dave G]

Both. It is a mystery to us. We can only go by what God tells us and leave it at that.

It's not a mystery to me.

I suppose the only thing that I can tell you is, when I look at it in pieces, isolated and alone, they contradict each other if taken by themselves.
Ignoring any part or parts is selective in our "hearing", and God tells us that believers shall not "live" except by every word of God ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).
Now, when I read it beginning to end it flows like a newspaper...but it didn't always.

That took time...about 15 years of reading almost everyday for God to show me the things He has shown me, by His grace; For things to "coalesce" and for Him to fill in the blind spots that I had growing up listening to sermons in Independent Baptist churches.
What's more is, any believer can trust Him to do the same thing.

The NT is written to believers. We cannot ignore any of it if we want the full picture.

I agree, and most wholeheartedly.
But, while there are parts that seem to be a mystery to you, I see the parts that many claim to be a mystery, and they are no mystery to me.
I understand, by God's grace...but again, I didn't always.

Steaver, I'm no better or worse than you are ( actually, I'm probably worse ).
But God saved me by His grace, as He saves any of us by His grace.
Grace that does not allow works of any kind ( not even righteous ones ( Titus 3:5-6 ) like believing on His Son ) to pollute it.
In His grace, He is responsible even for the belief ( John 6:29 ).


This is my final reply to you in this thread.


May God bless you abundantly, both in this life and in the next, and may His Son always be the center of your affections.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know, and according to that train of thought (which is a train wreck by the way), that is the problem with the majority of the human race, God has not enabled everyone and therein lies the problem- God.

You do not see the problem with your nonsense-how you sound? You insist there is no free will ,yet have the nerve to say ONCE enabled THEN you have" free will" . I do not know whose kool-aid you've been drinking but it does not sound , sound minded. I would say you still have not received Jesus Christ , at least not in sound doctrine and have quite a bit of learning in TRUTH yet.
You need to stop speaking in oxymoron's. And stop preaching for a greater judgement will be upon you if you continue to do so with this moronic doctrine of yours.

You said:]When God enabled me to accept Jesus to save me from my sins, (WERE YOU POSSESSED?)
You said: I was then able to by His grace accept Jesus by "free will", but not ever before that happened!

THIS IS AN OXYMORON.

Very disconcerting......[/QUOTE]
All sinners before jesus frees them to obey and love and serve him are slaves bound to their sin natures, correct?

 

[steaver]

I'm not ridiculing you, steaver...
I'm showing you where this line of thinking actually leads.

I have seen no ridicule from you at all, you speak with respect. I'm also showing you where TULIP line of thinking actually leads, that is to men simply being robots programmed to love God.

Therefore, if salvation could be earned by doing something, then that would make it by something other than the sheer grace of God Almighty

Asking Jesus Christ for His saving grace while prompted by the Holy Ghost to do so is not any form of work by the individual whatsoever, that is a false protest used by Calvinist in an attempt to justify TULI beliefs.

Scripture itself can answer all those questions, steaver.
I will never quote anything or anyone outside of that to tell someone why I believe what I believe.

Nor will I brother. My positions are based on Sola Scripture and the study of them over 20 years, weighing all opinions from man.

But, while there are parts that seem to be a mystery to you, I see the parts that many claim to be a mystery, and they are no mystery to me.

You misunderstood, Grace through faith is not the mystery I spoke of. God designing choice into His operation of salvation being all of God is the mystery. Our ways are not God's ways. Man wants to know everything and have an answer for everything and even comes up with ways to have everything fall in line with his own limited ways of thinking. And then he is satisfied in his mind that he understands just as God sees it.

There are so many things wrong with Calvinism that it shows in the teaching and preaching from the pulpits of those who hold these things to be true. They withhold from their congregation and even from their own children what they claim to believe. They won't tell them God may not love them. They won't tell them they are doomed to hell unless God chooses to love them. They won't tell them that even if they love God and love their neighbor as perfectly as a human being can, God may still let them to hell. They won't tell them to not bother praying because God won't hear you unless He chooses to love you at some point. And don't bother praying for you loved ones salvation, for God to convict them of their need for a Saviour, it's all up to God, He doesn't consider your prayers.

Blessings brother! Good speaking with you!