Warning: this may be dangerous for the faint of heart

[Yeshua1]

Blah, Blah, Blah and not one verse that says all men are born sinners.

And your scripture from Job severely hurts your argument as Jesus was born of a woman.

Cause and effect? Satan was created perfect and he sinned. Adam and Eve were very good and they sinned. This proves that a sin nature is not necessary to sin, there goes your argument.

And you even admit man in Ecc 7:29 is plural! Well, try believing what the verse says. It says all men are made upright, which means righteous, without sin.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god

david said that in Sin he was created

paul said that in Adam, ALL have sinned, as god reckoned His transgressions unto ALL who would follow after Him!

Could man be saved by keeping the law than?

How did jesus avoid sinning, was it due to his 'free will" response to sin?

Could jesus have sinned?

Could we NOT ever sin as he did, since to you both him and us were the same in our humanities at birth?

 

[The Biblicist]

Telling you what Qur'an says is telling you what I believe?

I believe you completely. The same "spirit" behind the Qur'an is the same spirit behind you.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, what is your position on this topic?

I don't think using Mary's genetic material would necissarily cause Jesus to be a sinner.

The virgin birth removes all male contribution in the birth of Jesus. It is by one "MAN" death (the separated state of the human spirit) entered the world and it is by one "MAN" death is "passed" down to Adam's offspring. Hence, the state of the human spirit through pariticipation of one "MAN" in child birth brings a child into the world. Sin is the condition of the human "spirit" upon entrance into the world.

 

[billwald]

If we had a sample of Jesus' DNA would it be classifiable as human?

 

[Winman]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god

This is the truth, every man is a sinner because every man has committed his own personal sin.

david said that in Sin he was created

This is also true, but David did not say he was born a sinner, you are reading that into the text. The Jews who had these scriptures for 1500 years before Augustine NEVER interpreted these scriptures to teach Original Sin. This is historical FACT.

paul said that in Adam, ALL have sinned, as god reckoned His transgressions unto ALL who would follow after Him!

Pure falsehood, the scriptures NEVER say that all men have sinned in Adam.

Could man be saved by keeping the law than?

If a man kept the law he would have no need of being saved, as he would not be lost. Jesus is the only man who has ever perfectly kept the law.

How did jesus avoid sinning, was it due to his 'free will" response to sin?

He obeyed the word of God just like we do, except he did it ALL the time. We don't, we often disobey and sin. We are not forced to sin, we choose to.

Could jesus have sinned?

Jesus seems to imply that he could have sinned.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said "IF" he should deny that he knew his Father he would be a liar. The word "IF" denotes possibility. Why would Jesus suggest it might be possible he could commit sin if he were unable?

Could we NOT ever sin as he did, since to you both him and us were the same in our humanities at birth?

No man ever has to sin. That said, no man but Jesus has ever lived his entire life without sinning, except little children or babies who have died before they could commit sin. But no man who has matured and understood right from wrong has failed to sin.

Why is it offensive to believe men are born upright? This does not rob Jesus of being Saviour, Adam and Eve were made upright, they sinned, and they needed a Saviour. It is the exact same for all men.

Scripture says God has made man upright, and it is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

All this false doctrine in the church like the Immaculate Conception, baptizing babies, Purgatory, all because Augustine did not know the scriptures and introduced the teachings of the Manicheans into the church who believed all matter was evil. The Jews never believed the scriptures taught Original Sin, neither did the Eastern church that used only Greek texts. This is historical fact.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is the truth, every man is a sinner because every man has committed his own personal sin.

This is also true, but David did not say he was born a sinner, you are reading that into the text. The Jews who had these scriptures for 1500 years before Augustine NEVER interpreted these scriptures to teach Original Sin. This is historical FACT.



Pure falsehood, the scriptures NEVER say that all men have sinned in Adam.


If a man kept the law he would have no need of being saved, as he would not be lost. Jesus is the only man who has ever perfectly kept the law.



He obeyed the word of God just like we do, except he did it ALL the time. We don't, we often disobey and sin. We are not forced to sin, we choose to.


Jesus seems to imply that he could have sinned.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said "IF" he should deny that he knew his Father he would be a liar. The word "IF" denotes possibility. Why would Jesus suggest it might be possible he could commit sin if he were unable?



No man ever has to sin. That said, no man but Jesus has ever lived his entire life without sinning, except little children or babies who have died before they could commit sin. But no man who has matured and understood right from wrong has failed to sin.

Why is it offensive to believe men are born upright? This does not rob Jesus of being Saviour, Adam and Eve were made upright, they sinned, and they needed a Saviour. It is the exact same for all men.

Scripture says God has made man upright, and it is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

All this false doctrine in the church like the Immaculate Conception, baptizing babies, Purgatory, all because Augustine did not know the scriptures and introduced the teachings of the Manicheans into the church who believed all matter was evil. The Jews never believed the scriptures taught Original Sin, neither did the Eastern church that used only Greek texts. This is historical fact.

So you hold that God was actually able to sin?

How did jesus resist ever sinning, do you see it possible that any of us could do same law keeping as he did than?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Please recall that Christians believe: the soul = mind/intellect, will, and emotions.

But, don't forget the other thread ... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=81861
.

I read the post. There are things I find problematic with the article. Also it is wrong to assume that "Christians" believe the soul= mind/intellect, will, and emotions. God breathed into man a soul. The intellect, will, and emotions are a dichotomy of the aspects of the human being not the definition of the soul itself. Thus the soul is properly viewed as

The soul may be defined as the ultimate internal principle by which we think, feel, and will, and by which our bodies are animated The soul may be defined as the ultimate internal principle by which we think, feel, and will, and by which our bodies are animated

The problem with equating the mind and emotions and the will with the soul is that when one looses their mind has their soul failed to function? When one emotes feelings that aren't appropriate for the situation has the soul ceased? When one wills to sin after one is "born again" does that mean the soul isn't renewed with the life that God has given him?

 

[The Biblicist]

I read the post. There are things I find problematic with the article. Also it is wrong to assume that "Christians" believe the soul= mind/intellect, will, and emotions. God breathed into man a soul. The intellect, will, and emotions are a dichotomy of the aspects of the human being not the definition of the soul itself. Thus the soul is properly viewed as

The problem with equating the mind and emotions and the will with the soul is that when one looses their mind has their soul failed to function? When one emotes feelings that aren't appropriate for the situation has the soul ceased? When one wills to sin after one is "born again" does that mean the soul isn't renewed with the life that God has given him?

In the scriptures the word "psuche" is translated by two terms; (1) life; (2) soul.

I believe the reason that both terms are necessary to properly describe the psueche is because one describes the internal unseen aspect while the other describes the external expression or consequences. The term "soul" describes the internal activities of intellect, emotions and will that form the personality of a human being while "life" describes the visible consequences/expression of the psueche. Or to say it in Biblical terms "as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE." Or from the heart originates all our attitudes and actions.

Technically, no living human loses their mind. They may not express it rationally or consciously but they do not lose its function in some manner. Even in the cases of "vegetated" persons we are only talking about the inability to visibly express it unless we are talking about those who are technically brain dead whose bodily functions are being maintained by external artificial sources.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In the scriptures the word "psuche" is translated by two terms; (1) life; (2) soul.

I believe the reason that both terms are necessary to properly describe the psueche is because one describes the internal unseen aspect while the other describes the external expression or consequences. The term "soul" describes the internal activities of intellect, emotions and will that form the personality of a human being while "life" describes the visible consequences/expression of the psueche. Or to say it in Biblical terms "as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE." Or from the heart originates all our attitudes and actions.

Technically, no living human loses their mind. They may not express it rationally or consciously but they do not lose its function in some manner. Even in the cases of "vegetated" persons we are only talking about the inability to visibly express it unless we are talking about those who are technically brain dead whose bodily functions are being maintained by external artificial sources.

For the most part your post is ok. However, I do take issue with your use of

"as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE."

it is clear that the passage quoted is referring not to equate something to the "soul" but rather showing the reality of the person. What really goes on in his motivation is how he thinks from his desires. I agree that the soul is the internal principle or source of these things but these things are the result of there being a soul. A mind is reliant on its ability to rationalize. That ability can be compromised by biological problems. Thus an Alshimer's patient may not be able to properly rationalize but has that affected their soul? Is a person's soul any less due to that disease?

 

[The Biblicist]

For the most part your post is ok. However, I do take issue with your use of it is clear that the passage quoted is referring not to equate something to the "soul" but rather showing the reality of the person. What really goes on in his motivation is how he thinks from his desires.

What goes on within you (motives, rationalizations, emotional attachments, all that drives volition are all activies of the soul) are what you are in the full expression of yourself. It is YOU interior and exterior as it characterizes/dominates all of what you are.

Jesus referring to the lost condition said the said the same thing negatively as follows:

Mt. 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Jesus said the same thing positively as follows:

Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

If the term "pseuche" had been translated "life" instead of "soul" here it would better express what Christ intended because he was referring to the WHOLE of the interior and exterior condition of man.

I agree that the soul is the internal principle or source of these things but these things are the result of there being a soul. A mind is reliant on its ability to rationalize. That ability can be compromised by biological problems. Thus an Alshimer's patient may not be able to properly rationalize but has that affected their soul? Is a person's soul any less due to that disease?

Yes, to love a person with "all your soul" is affected by that disease as love is an act of the will as well as emotions which is lost eventually by alzheimers.

I have known countless truly saved persons because of biological conditions have returned to cursing and other acts of "the flesh" because living the Christian life or walking "in the Spirit" requires conscious RESISTANCE and conscious DETERMINATION to war against indwelling sin. They have lost this ability due to biological problems.

Now, they have not lost the FUNCTIONS of the soul but merely the CONTROL over those functions and their EXTERNAL responses demonstrate they have lost CONTROL.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, to love a person with "all your soul" is affected by that disease as love is an act of the will as well as emotions which is lost eventually by alzheimers.

I would disagree. Love is an activity of the soul as is the expression of will. The soul is not lessened because it is prohibited from these expressions

I have known countless truly saved persons because of biological conditions have returned to cursing and other acts of "the flesh" because living the Christian life or walking "in the Spirit" requires conscious RESISTANCE and conscious DETERMINATION to war against indwelling sin. They have lost this ability due to biological problems.

Yes so have I. So now the question becomes if these things are equal to their soul rather than the soul being their source the fact they cannot "resist or determine" does that affect their salvation? Case in Point you believe that once you are saved you cannot fall. And you also believe that the expression of being "saved" is by right living. Would you therefore suggest that a person who being plagued by this disease and did not resist sin and cursing language because they were never saved to begin with? I think this is a problematic view.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would disagree. Love is an activity of the soul as is the expression of will. The soul is not lessened because it is prohibited from these expressions

.

The soul is lessened in the sense of control and expression and that is self-evident to any observer.

So now the question becomes if these things are equal to their soul rather than the soul being their source

I never said these things are "equal to" the soul. What I said is that they are inseparable in a cause and effect relationship. What you are WITHIN determines what you are WITHOUT as the WITHOUT simply manifests what is WITHIN. Hence, WITHOUT is the EXTENSION of what is WITHIN.

the fact they cannot "resist or determine" does that affect their salvation?

Yes, it does affect their salvation. The EXPRESSION of their soul is lost - their life expression for Christ is lost. It is LOST in regard to future rewards. It is LOST in regard to present conscious salvation expereience and values (service, assurance, peace, usefulness).

Case in Point you believe that once you are saved you cannot fall. And you also believe that the expression of being "saved" is by right living. Would you therefore suggest that a person who being plagued by this disease and did not resist sin and cursing language because they were never saved to begin with? I think this is a problematic view.

Salvation is threefold in nature concerning the whole person. The spirit of man is regenerated (Jn. 3:6) and thus instantly glorified and that is precisely where and why the Holy Spirit indwells us - in our spirit renewed in the image of God in true righteousness and holiness - no further salvation required of the spirit - complete, sinless, glorified.

The soul of man in regard to its EXPRESSION (life) is BEING saved and is a matter of REDEEMING THE TIME by setting our affections on things above, resisting sin, obeying His Word. Whatever TIME is not REDEEMED after this manner ("walking in the Spirit") is LOST now and in eternity to come. It perishes forever, no going back and making a redo. Hence, that portion of our LIFE expression that is not produced by the power of the Holy Spirit through our new man is LOST - and is subject NOW to reaping what we sow, and is not regarded as "life" lived in the Spirit but "DEATH" (separated from God's Spirit). It yeilds NOW loss (assurance, peace, usefulness, glory to God, etc.) and loss in the FUTURE (loss of rewards, position, public commendation, etc.). However, the "soul" itself is "saved" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

The body is not "saved" now, nor is it "being saved" but must die or be transformed due to indwelling sin for which there is no redemption only destruction either by physical deterioration of supernatural removal from the body. However, it "shall be saved" and that is the future tense of salvation.

In regard to your precise question about the loss of conscious FUNCTION or CONTROL due to disease that aspect of life is LOST forever for the glory of God, assurance is lost, rewards are lost, joy is lost and all temporal conscious experiences of salvation are lost. However, since our works are NEVER the basis for justification before God heaven is not lost. Since, what brought about this loss of function is not WILLFUL sin it falls under the category of sins of ignorance as the mind no longer can discern truth from error.

The visible expression of the soul is NEVER SINLESS but that is what is required to be justified in His sight. That is why justification before God is without our works but solely based upon Christ's works or goodness. Hence,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

.

The soul is lessened in the sense of control and expression and that is self-evident to any observer.

I disagree. The Soul itself isn't lessened because of its inability to properly communicate or exhibit itself. Thats like saying a def-mute is less of a person because of their inability to communicate properly.

I never said these things are "equal to" the soul.

Well, that is my contention with the OP.

What I said is that they are inseparable in a cause and effect relationship.

I partially agree as my example points out. An alzheimers patient becomes mean and swears after a life time of "saintliness" doesn't mean that persons state of their soul isn't affected by a biological disease.

What you are WITHIN determines what you are WITHOUT as the WITHOUT simply manifests what is WITHIN. Hence, WITHOUT is the EXTENSION of what is WITHIN.

Generally speaking that is true however, a beautiful person may not be physically beautiful. However, certainly, their personality will certainly show by their action however a def-mute quadrapalegic (spelling?) may be very limited on expressing their beauty within but that doesn't lessen their beauty.

Yes, it does affect their salvation. The EXPRESSION of their soul is lost - their life expression for Christ is lost. It is LOST in regard to future rewards.

I see what you mean. However, to be clear you are not saying they are lost to heaven. I am using the term salvation in accordance to what most protestants consider salvation. Though you and I are in agreement salvation takes on many aspects the entry to heaven but being one.

 

[The Biblicist]

I disagree. The Soul itself isn't lessened because of its inability to properly communicate or exhibit itself. Thats like saying a def-mute is less of a person because of their inability to communicate properly.

You are confusing things that differ. I am not saying that alzheimer's destroys the EXISTENCE of the soul but rather it affects the CONDITION of the soul. In your analogy deafness does not merely destroy the CONDITION of hearing but destroys the EXISTENCE of hearing but does not destory the EXISTENCE of the person, only his CONDITION.

I partially agree as my example points out. An alzheimers patient becomes mean and swears after a life time of "saintliness" doesn't mean that persons state of their soul isn't affected by a biological disease.

It certainly does AFFECT/PERVERTS the FUNCTIONS of the soul without DESTROYING the soul. The soul continues to function but in a more LIMITED and DISTORTED manner.