WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

[Van]

wr

wrong,

it is not doctrine but a list of what will be written and why, Written to THE Hebrews who were believers, not salvation again, because one cannot be unsaved but maturity of Christians

Not sure I understand this post. My view is this passage is talking about people who are like soils 2 and 3 in Matthew 13. They heard and responded, but their faith was lacking (they did not go all in for Christ) and so God did not credit their faith as righteousness.

Thus the passage refers to believers whose faith was lacking and therefore were never saved.

 

[Van]

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible IF a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in sharing in, a partner in a work, office, dignity. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews 3:14 in the context of believers, "For we have become partakers of Christ," so at first glance, partakers of the Holy Spirit "on the surface" would seem to support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It's plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by temporarily responding to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. *Note that the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality and character of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the most trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.

It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. Now why is it that we never find the words "lose or lost your salvation" in the Bible? That would certainly settle the issue for me. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

*It never ceases to amaze me how the people who attack the OSAS/perseverance/preservation of the saints doctrine the most and in cynical fashion are those who teach salvation by works and ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly disagree with OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.

1) My view is the responded to the gospel with belief, but the belief was lacking, like the 2 and 3 soils of Matthew 13, and therefore they were never saved.

2) I agree to be enlightened does not necessarily mean they are saved, as in this case (Hebrews 6.)

3) I agree, they were partakers of the Holy Spirit in that they were enlightened with the inspired gospel of Christ, and not indwelt and sealed in Christ.

4) I agree, tasted may or may not indicate full acceptance. Thus, once again they were never saved because they only tasted but did not "drink" or fully accept the gospel.

5) I think "fall away" refers to choosing to turn away from full acceptance of the gospel, thus falling away from the opportunity to go "all in" for Christ.

6) We agree again, the passage makes clear those only tasting the gospel were never saved.

 

[loDebar]

really.......

yes, your hand does not sin , Jesus said if it offends thee, or keeps you from Salvation, cut it off
Your original or base nature , soul, sins

 

[loDebar]

Not sure I understand this post. My view is this passage is talking about people who are like soils 2 and 3 in Matthew 13. They heard and responded, but their faith was lacking (they did not go all in for Christ) and so God did not credit their faith as righteousness.

Thus the passage refers to believers whose faith was lacking and therefore were never saved.

Hebrews 6 is talking to Hebrew Believes who did not need the Gospel again but maturity , growth and completion as Christians

 

[loDebar]

Whoever heard such a thing! Cart pulls horse!

We are given faith in order to respond to the Holy Spirit's persuasion of the need of and the ability of Jesus to save us.
Our faith increases as we mature, shown by the fruits of the spirit
If we chose not to exercise faith or believe as the Holy Spirit prompts were are lost and may place our faith in other insufficient things, cares of the world

 

[robycop3]

no read it in pieces, paragraphs
The writer wants to speak of maturity, not salvation again because they were saved and cannot crucify Jesus everytime they sin, or cannot fall away "better things of you"

Was Jesus death only good for past sins? Current sins at the time of His death? no ALL SINS
He knew you were a sinner and would continue to sin, despite ones efforts not to. He paid for all sins

You're still trying to make those Scriptures say what YOU want them to, insteada what they actually say.

Let's look briefly at some of David's sins. He saw Bathsheba naked & gave in to lust, even after finding out she was married to Uriah. Now Uriah, although a Hittite, seemed to be a worshipper of God, & was completely loyal to David, being one of Dave's top 30 captains.

In that time/place, women didn't have much say-so over their own bodies, so God didn't hold Bathsheba accountable. When she informed Dave she was pregnant, he gave in to temptation again. After trying unsuccessfully to persuade Uriah to "know" Dathsheba so her pregnancy would appear to be from him, Dave murdered Uriah by arranging for him to die in battle.

God had had enough! He punished David severely for his sins. The difference in him & Saul was that David never turned his back on God. He admitted his sins & asked God to punish him & no one else for his sins. And God forgave him, but his sins were so severe that He kept punishment coming on David, shortening his life & allowing strife to develop among his sons, including his temporary ouster by Absalom. But God chose his son Solomon, by Bathsheba, as his successor. Again, DAVID NEVER REJECTED GOD !

Under the New Covenant, Jesus does all the sin-forgiving, and He will forgive them if we sincerely ask Him to. And all of us sin, often without realizing it. And Satan works 24/7 to lure us to sin. he's hoping to tempt us to like sin so much that we turn our backs on Jesus & thus give up our salvation.

Again, the key is KEEPING OUR FAITH. Now, when one begins deliberately sinning as my late acquaintance did, one has almost always abandoned his/her faith. Again, we have the examples of Saul and David. Saul made light of disobeying God, while David admitted his sins, asked God to forgive him, & accepted his punishment prayerfully.

 

[robycop3]

An

Hebrews 6 is talking to Hebrew Believes who did not need the Gospel again but maturity , growth and completion as Christians

And God was reminding them of the penalty for abandoning their faith, once received.

 

[loDebar]

An

And God was reminding them of the penalty for abandoning their faith, once received.

not in this chapter

no, the writer said, you can be re saved unless you re crucify Christ.? Does anyone have the power to do this. Was not Christ death sufficient for all sin?

Heb 6:1

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:9

¶
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[loDebar]

You're still trying to make those Scriptures say what YOU want them to, insteada what they actually say.

Let's look briefly at some of David's sins. He saw Bathsheba naked & gave in to lust, even after finding out she was married to Uriah. Now Uriah, although a Hittite, seemed to be a worshipper of God, & was completely loyal to David, being one of Dave's top 30 captains.

In that time/place, women didn't have much say-so over their own bodies, so God didn't hold Bathsheba accountable. When she informed Dave she was pregnant, he gave in to temptation again. After trying unsuccessfully to persuade Uriah to "know" Dathsheba so her pregnancy would appear to be from him, Dave murdered Uriah by arranging for him to die in battle.

God had had enough! He punished David severely for his sins. The difference in him & Saul was that David never turned his back on God. He admitted his sins & asked God to punish him & no one else for his sins. And God forgave him, but his sins were so severe that He kept punishment coming on David, shortening his life & allowing strife to develop among his sons, including his temporary ouster by Absalom. But God chose his son Solomon, by Bathsheba, as his successor. Again, DAVID NEVER REJECTED GOD !

Under the New Covenant, Jesus does all the sin-forgiving, and He will forgive them if we sincerely ask Him to. And all of us sin, often without realizing it. And Satan works 24/7 to lure us to sin. he's hoping to tempt us to like sin so much that we turn our backs on Jesus & thus give up our salvation.

Again, the key is KEEPING OUR FAITH. Now, when one begins deliberately sinning as my late acquaintance did, one has almost always abandoned his/her faith. Again, we have the examples of Saul and David. Saul made light of disobeying God, while David admitted his sins, asked God to forgive him, & accepted his punishment prayerfully.

Disobeying God for the believer breaks fellowship not salvation.
Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword

Does disappointment with you earthy father make you not his son?

 

[3rdAngel]

Ok. Christ fed the flock of slaughter riddles, dark sayings. Zechariah 11
What's your point?

What God closes no man can open, or, what God opens no man can close:

25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes:
26 yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.
27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11

Yep! Now why did he do thatspeak to them in parables......?

EZEKIEL 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Does he not speak parables?

MATTHEW 13:10-17
[10], And the disciples came, and said to him, Why speak you to them in parables?
[11], He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you (BELIEVERS AND FOLLOWERS) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[12], For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has.
[13], Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14], And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which said, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive.
[15], For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[16], But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
[17], For truly I say to you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them.

Yep! My point was that the flock of slaughter are all those who do not believe and follow God's Word. Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we have no salvation and we are not God's Sheep.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

 

[kyredneck]

Yep! Now why did he do that......?

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt 13

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
34 and without a parable spake he not unto them: but privately to his own disciples he expounded all things. Mk 4

 

[3rdAngel]

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt 13

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
34 and without a parable spake he not unto them: but privately to his own disciples he expounded all things. Mk 4

As posted earlier and shown already through the scriptures it was given them (BELIEVERS AND FOLLOWERS) to know God's Word because they BELIEVED and FOLLOWED what God said. We cannot know God's Word unless God is our teacher and we seek him to know His Words *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 6:63; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:17. We must come through the door to enter into the pasture (the Word) to be His Sheep *JOHN 1:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. If we do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word then we are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27 because we do not hear His Voice or follow what he says. Hearing they hear and do not understand and seeing they see but do not see...

 

[kyredneck]

My point was that the flock of slaughter are all those who do not believe and follow God's Word

Your misapplication of scripture is horrendous. You utterly fail to follow the most basic first rule of interpretation:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

The flock of slaughter:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

[Benjamin]

Yep! Now why did he do thatspeak to them in parables......?

Certainly not to give future delusions to some that they have received the special power of insights into private interpretations and understandings who in turn would embark on a heretical mission of proselytizing the necessity of work-based evidence of sinlessness for the assurance of salvation. Because anyone with such an agenda merely demonstrates that the object of their faith is seriously messed up, not placing their trust in Christ and His grace but rather focusing on their own accomplishments for evidence that they have earned their keep …

 

[3rdAngel]

Your misapplication of scripture is horrendous. You utterly fail to follow the most basic first rule of interpretation:

I am sorry my friend what is it in the scriptures that have been provided to you that you disagree with that are not true in your view? You have been provided God's Word alone which are not my words but God's Word but you do not believe them. In resoponse you provide your own words here that are your words that are not God's Word. I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

The flock of slaughter:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

Here you seek to know the scriptures through the teaching of men. Yet God says as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my thoughts from your thoughts and my ways from your ways. *Yep more from ISAIAH 55:9.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned *1 CORINTHIANS 2:14. If God is not your teacher you will not know him or will you find him and know his ways **JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 6:63; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:17. We must come through the door to enter into the pasture (the Word) to be His Sheep *JOHN 1:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. If we do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word then we are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27 because we do not hear His Voice or follow what he says. Hearing they hear and do not understand and seeing they see but do not see. The wisdom of this world in order to know God's Word is foolishness with God *1 CORITHIANS 3:19-20; 1 CORITHIANS 1:20; 1 CORINTHIANS 2:6.

God bless

 

[3rdAngel]

Certainly not to give future delusions to some that they have received the special power of insights into private interpretations and understandings who in turn would embark on a heretical mission of proselytizing the necessity of work-based evidence of sinlessness for the assurance of salvation. Because anyone with such an agenda merely demonstrates that the object of their faith is seriously messed up, not placing their trust in Christ and His grace but rather focusing on their own accomplishments for evidence that they have earned their keep …

I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. Sadly though at that time it will be too late for many that had the chance to hear and believe God's Word but chose to turn away not knowing the time of their visitiation. Tick tock does the clock time is running out. If you hear His Voice (the Word) harden not your heart as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness.

 

[MB]

Only those who have not committed there wills to Christ have to worry about not being saved. Examine your selves to see if you be in Christ.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

I am sorry my friend what is it in the scriptures that have been provided to you that you disagree with

...it's the violence you do to the word of God that I disagree with.

 

[3rdAngel]

...it's the violence you do to the word of God that I disagree with.

I see. Yet here you still are not able to tell me what it is that you disagree with in the scriptures that have been shared here and in this OP but instead providing your own words which are not God's Word? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. Ignoring God's Word does not make them dissappear.

Gods Sheep Hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him

 

[Benjamin]

All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind.

Many are called to be messengers of the Gospel of the Grace of God but you would do well to notice that your message is conflict in many areas of understanding the necessity of that grace and your enthusiasm to display your private interpretations of your righteousness and special enlightenment should be taken under consideration that it may just be that you set apart from the rest of us because you are in error...

He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see.

Perhaps, could it be possible, that He is speaking about you?