Warren & PDC In The News

[Don]

A derogatory article, to say the least:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23912

This article is an evaluation of a Wall Street Journal article. WSJ fouls on at least one count: They address only the churches that have suffered by adopting the PDC strategy. They don't mention how many churches have actually benefitted and grown.

However, if the article were a true indication of what happens when someone adopts the PDC strategy (which I don't believe it is), one would have to wonder just how Saddleback got so large...to which, I believe the answer is already evident.

 

[gb93433]

When Kennedy started Evangelism Explosion he lost a lot of members as well.

I would say that if the average pastor stood at the pulpit on Sunday and told the congregation that only those members who have been Christians more than five years and who have ever led someone to Christ could keep their membership. I would assume there would be a lot of angry people. Imagine the first century church having members who did not lead people to Christ.

 

[paidagogos]

Imagine 1st century Christians

When Kennedy started Evangelism Explosion he lost a lot of members as well.

I would say that if the average pastor stood at the pulpit on Sunday and told the congregation that only those members who have been Christians more than five years and who have ever led someone to Christ could keep their membership. I would assume there would be a lot of angry people. Imagine the first century church having members who did not lead people to Christ.

Is there any reason, other than our own biased imaginations, not to suppose that there were first century Christians who did not lead others to Christ? First century Christians were people just like us, without the technology, who were subject to the same passions and failings that we are. Yes, I suppose some first century Christians did not lead others to Christ. Why should they be different?

 

[paidagogos]

Success: By Whose Standards?

A derogatory article, to say the least:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23912

This article is an evaluation of a Wall Street Journal article. WSJ fouls on at least one count: They address only the churches that have suffered by adopting the PDC strategy. They don't mention how many churches have actually benefitted and grown.

However, if the article were a true indication of what happens when someone adopts the PDC strategy (which I don't believe it is), one would have to wonder just how Saddleback got so large...to which, I believe the answer is already evident.

The problem with the WSJ's assessment is that their definition of success is different from a Christian viewpoint. For secular man, success or failure is defined by numbers. For the Chrisitian, it is whether the action is pleasing to God. Wm Carey spent many years in India before winning his first convert, yet no one can deny the impact he had for Christian throughout India and beyond.

My objections to PDL or PDC are theological, not quantitative.

 

[gb93433]

Is there any reason, other than our own biased imaginations, not to suppose that there were first century Christians who did not lead others to Christ? First century Christians were people just like us, without the technology, who were subject to the same passions and failings that we are. Yes, I suppose some first century Christians did not lead others to Christ. Why should they be different?

You have a good point. There were church problems. However the difference would be that they were often under persecution. So I would assume that the imposters were weeded out rather quickly when persecution came. Historically we know that happened. We also know there were those who repented.

Certainly there were some who called themselves Christians who were not. Matthew addresses that.

My assumption is that due to the community of Christians there was a lot of encouragement and discipleship going on.

Today in areas where there are fewer Christians and more ridicule, the Christians are more intense in living the Christian life. In areas where going to church is more cultural you also see more people who are lukewarm.

We do know the church is growing the fastest is in areas where there is greater persecution.

 

[tinytim]

When the world hates us, we are doing something right... sooooo.
Since the WSJ doesn't like PDC, does that mean PDC is right?

BTW, the church I left as youth pastor went throught the 40 days of purpose, and is now doing magnificently. New ministries, more mature Christians, and souls being won.... But if the WSJ says it's bad it must be, after all, they are never wrong....lol

 

[av1611jim]

I read the article. I find it revealing that Warren did NOT respond to Baptist Press concerning their (BP's) own article.

Warren is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[rbell]

I read the article. I find it revealing that Warren did NOT respond to Baptist Press concerning their (BP's) own article.

Warren is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Interesting...

I've had articles written about me that I didn't respond to.
Does that make me a "wolf?"

What do you mean by "wolf" anyway...do you see Rick Warren as a false prophet? A heretic? Unsaved? Or just a pastor with some wrongheaded ideas?

Not trying to put words in your mouth...just looking for an explanation.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The problem with the WSJ's assessment is that their definition of success is different from a Christian viewpoint. For secular man, success or failure is defined by numbers. For the Chrisitian, it is whether the action is pleasing to God. Wm Carey spent many years in India before winning his first convert, yet no one can deny the impact he had for Christian throughout India and beyond.

My objections to PDL or PDC are theological, not quantitative.

Agreed.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Interesting...

I've had articles written about me that I didn't respond to.
Does that make me a "wolf?"

What do you mean by "wolf" anyway...do you see Rick Warren as a false prophet? A heretic? Unsaved? Or just a pastor with some wrongheaded ideas?

Not trying to put words in your mouth...just looking for an explanation.

All of the above.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[rbell]

All of the above.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph's going to spend his first million years in heaven looking surprised and eating his words.:laugh:

 

[rbell]

for Joseph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56e4jAlAS1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn21S...elated&search=

Rick doesn't preach "another gospel." You owe him an apology for calling him unsaved.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

for Joseph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56e4jAlAS1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn21S...elated&search=

Rick doesn't preach "another gospel." You owe him an apology for calling him unsaved.

I didn't see the word unsaved in there. I apologize for that. That is certainly for God to choose. I hold to the rest of it though. Rick does not preach any gospel at all that I have seen, read, or heard.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

I didn't see the word unsaved in there. I apologize for that. That is certainly for God to choose. I hold to the rest of it though. Rick does not preach any gospel at all that I have seen, read, or heard.

Joseph Botwinick

If you don't believe RW preaches the Gospel...maybe it is you that needs a better understanding of what the Gospel is...

 

[pinoybaptist]

................................................Imagine the first century church having members who did not lead people to Christ

Where are the Scriptures that says any first century church, and I presume you are talking about the first churches established by the Apostles, ever led anyone to Christ ?

Stay within Scriptures, please. Any historian's account you quote puts you extra-Scriptural.

 

[webdog]

Where are the Scriptures that says any first century church, and I presume you are talking about the first churches established by the Apostles, ever led anyone to Christ ?

Stay within Scriptures, please. Any historian's account you quote puts you extra-Scriptural.

Did the Great Commission not apply to the first century Church?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Pinoy, for many of us the phrase "lead someone to Christ" is effectively synonymus with the injunction to be "witnesses unto me". The phrase may not be as systematic theologically correct as some would like but it works for most of us in describing our actions.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Have not listened to the whole video on youtube yet, but noticed an error straight off the bat.

Rick Warren: The Bible tells us that God created you to love you.

Sorry folks, that is not what the Word of God says.

Revelation 4:11 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Oh, sure God loves His children and cares for them, but He did not create us to love us, but rather for His pleasure.

 

[webdog]

Have not listened to the whole video on youtube yet, but noticed an error straight off the bat.

Rick Warren: The Bible tells us that God created you to love you.

Sorry folks, that is not what the Word of God says.



Oh, sure God loves His children and cares for them, but He did not create us to love us, but rather for His pleasure.

...and what if His pleasure is to create us to love us

 

[paidagogos]

What if.......................

...and what if His pleasure is to create us to love us

What if.............what if................what if........................
This is pure meaningless supposition.