Warren waver on Prop 8 stuns leaders

[annsni]

HE WAS NOT OPENLY LIVING IN SIN. THAT IS THE POINT!!!

What part of that don't you understand?

RW claims he's got gay friends, okay, so he knows their gay, they know they are gay and obviously others know they are gay. If they were not openly living in sin, then RW wouldn't know unless he was counselling them and that is a different matter AND that would not be openly living in sin. It wouldn't be a friendship either. Judas, didn't know Christ knew, he was a tad shocked, wouldn't you say.

Christ changed the hearts of those He came into contact with, He is the great deliver, the great physician, He healed the lame both body and soul. The sick spiritually came to Him and He delivered them from bondage. He didn't hang out with them, Christ wasn't cool like some of you believe, He didn't kick it with them.

Zaccheus was absolutely living in sin. No question about it.

Matthew 9 is pretty clear that Jesus was not only friendly but ATE with sinners. Here's the passage:

9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

If we limit our influence only on the ones who are "sinless", then we will not show any sinner Christ. It doesn't mean we applaud their lifestyle - it means that we get to know them enough that we can have a positive influence on their lives. We had a gay woman stay with us for a short time - as I worked at counseling her out of the lifestyle she was in. I count her as a friend but she would never be as close as a brother or sister in Christ until her heart was changed - but that doesn't mean that I didn't allow her in my life.

 

[Servent]

HE WAS NOT OPENLY LIVING IN SIN. THAT IS THE POINT!!!

What part of that don't you understand?

RW claims he's got gay friends, okay, so he knows their gay, they know they are gay and obviously others know they are gay. If they were not openly living in sin, then RW wouldn't know unless he was counselling them and that is a different matter AND that would not be openly living in sin. It wouldn't be a friendship either. Judas, didn't know Christ knew, he was a tad shocked, wouldn't you say.

Christ changed the hearts of those He came into contact with, He is the great deliver, the great physician, He healed the lame both body and soul. The sick spiritually came to Him and He delivered them from bondage. He didn't hang out with them, Christ wasn't cool like some of you believe, He didn't kick it with them.

I sure am glad the Christians that were hanging out with me when I was living in sin didn't think the way you do. I may not have had a heart change. by the way have you been hanging with RW and his gay friends to even know what they are talking about. I'm not a big fan of his either but I will give him the benafit of doubt, and let God do the rest.

 

[Marcia]

Christ changed the hearts of those He came into contact with, He is the great deliver, the great physician, He healed the lame both body and soul. The sick spiritually came to Him and He delivered them from bondage. He didn't hang out with them, Christ wasn't cool like some of you believe, He didn't kick it with them.

I think the issue is if the people are professing Christians and openly endorsing the gay lifestyle; if that were the case, there would be a problem. We don't know when RW says "gay friends" whom he means - unbelievers or those professing to be believers, and there are many of the latter around - more and more. If they are unbelievers or not professing to be Christian, there is nothing unbiblical about having them as friends.

But if they are professing to be Christian, that's another can of worms.

 

[Aaron]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again - what is the difference between a sodomite friend and a gluttonous friend? A friend who is quietly into pornography? A friend who cheated on his taxes? Why is homosexuality a greater scarlett letter than any other sin?

By the same token, what is the difference between a friend who is a pedophile, or one who gets drunk and beats his wife and kids, and the friend who lies on his resume?

On second thought, don't answer that. You stretch the bounds of credulity in your irrational defenses of one who is simply and obviously flip-flopping to gain the approbation of Washington and the media.

 

[Roy]

...one who is simply and obviously flip-flopping to gain the approbation of Washington and the media.

Good point Aaron.

Roy

 

[annsni]

By the same token, what is the difference between a friend who is a pedophile, or one who gets drunk and beats his wife and kids, and the friend who lies on his resume?

I would deal with them just as I would deal with anyone else in sin. I would love them but I would show them their sin, turn them in if they were breaking the law (homosexuality is not breaking the law but pedophilia and spousal abuse is), and continue to pray for them until such time that I am taken away in the rapture or die, or they die.

On second thought, don't answer that. You stretch the bounds of credulity in your irrational defenses of one who is simply and obviously flip-flopping to gain the approbation of Washington and the media.

Did he flip flop? No. He apologized to his friends for what the media misconstrued. I do not see any evidence that he apologized for supporting Prop 8.

 

[matt wade]

Did he flip flop? No. He apologized to his friends for what the media misconstrued. I do not see any evidence that he apologized for supporting Prop 8.

Now we are back to the basics. What exactly was it that the media miscontrued?

 

[Roy]

I say until you become God and know what is in Pastor Warren heart or anyone heart for that matter, you should remain silent.

I've been through 2 purpose-driven seminars, which doesn't give me diety status, but some things about Rick Warren appeared troubling. In one ten-minute presentation he will quote scripture from multiple Bible versions, and you know that each one can't possibly be God's word. It would make anyone suspect deceptiveness. He did the same thing recently in his Easter message on Fox TV.

Being silent is not always a good plan. (I guess you know the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes) I was in a church once where the preacher seemed so phony and many congregants felt that way, but we all just thought it was just us and not him. Anyway his free-spending and "trust the Lord for the increase" attitude put the church seriously in debt, and finally he left his wife for one of the "Mary Kay" ladies in the church. Today there is a parking lot where the church used to be.

Actually, I am pretty silent most of the time.

Roy

 

[annsni]

I've been through 2 purpose-driven seminars, which doesn't give me diety status, but some things about Rick Warren appeared troubling. In one ten-minute presentation he will quote scripture from multiple Bible versions, and you know that each one can't possibly be God's word. It would make anyone suspect deceptiveness. He did the same thing recently in his Easter message on Fox TV.

Ummm what do you beam that we know that each one can't possibly be God's Word? Of course they are.

 

[annsni]

Now we are back to the basics. What exactly was it that the media miscontrued?

I'm not exactly sure - but that is what Pastor Warren has said that he apologized for.

His exact quote was "The week before the -- the vote, somebody in my church said, Pastor Rick, what -- what do you think about this?

And I sent a note to my own members that said, I actually believe that marriage is -- really should be defined, that that definition should be -- say between a man and a woman.

And then all of a sudden out of it, they made me, you know, something that I really wasn't. And I actually -- there were a number of things that were put out. I wrote to all my gay friends -- the leaders that I knew -- and actually apologized to them. That never got out."

 

[ShotGunWillie]

...yet you claim only Christ and the person know the heart.

That is a fact, not a claim, not an opinion, its a fact.

You cannot prove that every person Christ was friends with repented and had a change of heart because one of his closest (Judas) never did.

I never said that. Provide for me an example of one that Christ was with, other than Judas who was living in sin. Judas was not living in sin, he did not do things out in the open for the world to see. But, give me an example of another person Christ came into contact with and held a relationship with that was living an openly sinful life.

Keep trying........

Is there a slight chance that God knew what He was doing when He selected Judas to follow Him? Is there any chance that we can get more from the life of Judas than just the fact that he betrayed Christ?

Why do Christians put up such a fight to justify why they have relationships with people openly living in sin?

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I sure am glad the Christians that were hanging out with me when I was living in sin didn't think the way you do. I may not have had a heart change. by the way have you been hanging with RW and his gay friends to even know what they are talking about. I'm not a big fan of his either but I will give him the benafit of doubt, and let God do the rest.

Thanks for sharing......

Good point, giving people the benefit of the doubt and giving them the opportunity to explain their actions is the best solution. Except, upon explaining his actions he can see clearly that he is offending his gay friends as well as the patrons of his building, therefore he has to straddle the fence, and is simply becomming, not hot nor cold. He doesn't want to lose his position as Preacher Gawd Man, so he has to please everyone he is around. Perhaps not even explaining their actions is best, and just leave it God's hands, because we have no responsibility in this area. Judge not, right?

 

[ShotGunWillie]

If we limit our influence only on the ones who are "sinless", then we will not show any sinner Christ. It doesn't mean we applaud their lifestyle - it means that we get to know them enough that we can have a positive influence on their lives.

Who said otherwise?

Christians like to say, well Christ hung out with sinners, that's who He was friends with. No, He did not "hang out" nor have "friends" who were living openly in sin. Sorry.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I've been through 2 purpose-driven seminars, which doesn't give me diety status, but some things about Rick Warren appeared troubling. In one ten-minute presentation he will quote scripture from multiple Bible versions, and you know that each one can't possibly be God's word. It would make anyone suspect deceptiveness. He did the same thing recently in his Easter message on Fox TV.

Roy

He picks what scripture agrees with HIM most, that's why he uses multiple translations and versions and paraphrase "bibles". It is easier to adjust scripture to fit your message than adjust your message to fit scripture.

 

[webdog]

I never said that. Provide for me an example of one that Christ was with, other than Judas who was living in sin.

I provided one, which refutes your point. Case closed.

He picks what scripture agrees with HIM most, that's why he uses multiple translations and versions and paraphrase "bibles". It is easier to adjust scripture to fit your message than adjust your message to fit scripture.

It was only a matter of time before this turned into a KJVO argument...

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Odd, I didn't mention KJV, nor have I argued that at all, cute though and expected.

Judas was not living in sin. So your example, does not satisfy the request, you cannot produce the request, therefore your have nothing. Case closed.

 

[annsni]

Who said otherwise?

Christians like to say, well Christ hung out with sinners, that's who He was friends with. No, He did not "hang out" nor have "friends" who were living openly in sin. Sorry.

Matthew 9:10 "And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. "

I think Scripture clearly refutes you. If reclining at a table with Jesus is not "hanging out", I don't know what is.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"No, He did not "hang out" nor have "friends" who were living openly in sin. Sorry."

Yet, as someone else already posted, the scriptures refer to Him as the "friend of sinners".


:godisgood:

 

[webdog]

Judas was not living in sin. So your example, does not satisfy the request, you cannot produce the request, therefore your have nothing. Case closed.

Really? He wasnt' living in sin? Was he living in righteousness?

 

[HankD]

I would certainly be willing to give RW a chance to clarify his statements.

Perhaps he should have used the word gay "associates" or "acquaintances" since "friend" is so subjective a term.

If he did that and openly admits (perhaps) that he might have used the wrongs words here and there or even came out and said (perhaps) that he was condescending to worldly friends and recapitulated then most who were offended would probably be satisfied.

Even if he is at fault, I don't believe it's the best path to publically verbally flog him.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.​

HankD